Australian Politics Forum - Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)

Baronvonrort

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Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Sep 16^th, 2012 at 6:23pm

Quote:

Insulting the Prophet (pbuh) is one of the worst of forbidden actions, and it constitutes kufr and apostasy from Islam according to scholarly consensus, whether done seriously or in jest.
The one who does that is to be executed even if he repents.
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/22809/insult

Abu
What is the punishment for insulting Allah, i cant find anything

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh) Reply #1 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 4:59pm yep, lets just take one opinion of some crackpot, and just ignore what the actual hadith/sunna and the Quran - you know the source of islamic law - say about it.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #2 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:35pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 4:59pm:

yep, lets just take one opinion of some crackpot, and just ignore what the actual hadith/sunna and the Quran - you know the source of islamic law - say about it.

Abu is the moderator here and he has never had a problem with islamqa.com, in fact his friend falah has even cited it on many occasions.

Many muslims like Islamqa because he cites from the quran-sunnah.

What does this verse mean?
http://quran.com/5/33

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48864 At my desk.	Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh) Reply #3 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:48pm polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 4:59pm: yep, lets just take one opinion of some crackpot, and just ignore what the actual hadith/sunna and the Quran - you know the source of islamic law - say about it. If you think you know better, out with it.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #4 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 6:59pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:35pm:

he has never had a problem with islamqa.com, in fact his friend falah has even cited it on many occasions.

So let me get this right... because falah (a person I've never even met), cited a website, therefore I supposedly take it as canonical?

Some logic... do you always think in such a hairbrained manner? Or are we privileged here to see you in action?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48864 At my desk.	Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh) Reply #5 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 7:13pm Quote: So let me get this right... because falah (a person I've never even met), cited a website, therefore I supposedly take it as canonical? Let's start with what he actually said eh? Do you have a problem with the site? Is the quoted extract from the site correct in your opinion?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #6 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:06pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 6:59pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:35pm:

he has never had a problem with islamqa.com, in fact his friend falah has even cited it on many occasions.

So let me get this right... because falah (a person I've never even met), cited a website, therefore I supposedly take it as canonical?

Some logic... do you always think in such a hairbrained manner? Or are we privileged here to see you in action?

Falah also posts on the aussie muslims forum abu, are you saying you have never responded to anything he has posted?

Islamqa.com has been used here before in this thread for an example-
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295175932/0

What is a munfiq abu?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #7 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:14pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

Falah also posts on the aussie muslims forum abu, are you saying you have never responded to anything he has posted?

I said met. I didn't say "Never posted on a forum with".

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

What is a munfiq abu?

Munafiq = hypocrite.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #8 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:26pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:14pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

Falah also posts on the aussie muslims forum abu, are you saying you have never responded to anything he has posted?

I said met. I didn't say "Never posted on a forum with".

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

What is a munfiq abu?

Munafiq = hypocrite.

Abu what are your thoughts on what the punishment should be for those who insult the prophet?

Do you agree with those muslims who held signs in Sydney saying behead those who insult the prophet?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #9 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:44pm

This is the closest I have sen Abu come to explaining what he thinks of the signs:

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 24^th, 2012 at 11:46pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 8:22am:

Quote:

It is inappropriate to display such signs in a country with a legal system that does not implement capital punishment, and which considers such punishment to be unjust.

Would it be appropriate in places like the US that do have capital punishment and consider it just?

Was there anything inappropriate about the reference to blasphemy, or was it only the reference to the punishment that was inappropriate?

Quote:

There's just simply no need for such signs, as the ones carrying them do not live under an Islamic system, and therefore even speaking about Islamic punishments is just nonsensical.

You speak about Islamic punishments here quite often. Do you make sense?

Quote:

The debate, in reality, is about peddling xenophobic garbage in order to justify the government's actions here and abroad.

So it has nothing to do with freedom of speech and blasphemy? It has nothing to do with that video that insulted Muhammed? Were the Muslims just pretending to be upset about that?

It may be more appropriate in the U.S, dunno. Are we in the U.S? Are you able to keep the conversation relevant? Or is it always an uphill battle with you, just trying to keep things within sane boundaries?

Do you realise you don't actually win debates fd, people just tire of listening to your tripe?

I never spoke about Islamic punishments ever here. You are the one who spends an unnatural amount of your time trying to ignite conversations about them. Perhaps you confused your pesky questioning (and my constant tiring of it) with a two way dialogue?

On blasphemy - it takes some effort, but it is possible to get a straight answer on this too:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2010 at 9:25pm:

Quote:

What is the penalty for blasphemy under Islamic law, in a proper Islamic state, with all the other qualififcations you need before giving an answer?

I think you already know it's a capital offense. I honestly don't see the attraction in asking the questions over and over? Your pathetic wiki is based on a misguided premise that Islamic laws somehow contradict Australian secular laws. As above, so do Biblical laws, doesn't stop the parliament reading Biblical prayers when opening does it? Doesn't stop Jews & Christians being good law-abiding citzeins does it? How you take a set of laws is up to you fd. If you choose not to implement the blasphemy law from the Bible, then it doesn't affect you does it? Likewise if you choose not to implement the blasphemy law from the Islamic texts. Your feeble attempt to paint some kind of incompatibility here is thrown right back in your face. It's based on the delusion that each and every citizen is supposedly required to carry out the punishments of the state, which is just nonsense. And we've been over this time and time again, and I've already painted the picture for you of an American citizen living here, believing in the U.S law of capital punishment, not contradicting the Australian law system. But as usual, the feeble minded are far from being able to reason such things out.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #10 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 9:34pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:26pm:

Abu what are your thoughts on what the punishment should be for those who insult the prophet?

I am going to take a guess and assume your question applies to what i think the punishment in Australian law should be, I have no thoughts on it. It does not interest me in the slightest what Australia's punishment for this is.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:26pm:

Do you agree with those muslims who held signs in Sydney saying behead those who insult the prophet?

I don't think they should've held those signs.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48864 At my desk.	Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh) Reply #11 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 10:43pm Quote: I am going to take a guess and assume your question applies to what i think the punishment in Australian law should be See what I mean about trying to get a straight answer out of him?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #12 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 11:45pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:35pm:

What does this verse mean?
5/33

That committing war and terrorism against islam is punishable by death. Fairly obvious I would have thought. Also you can't just ask "what does verse 5:33 mean" - its basically inseparable from 5:32 and 5:34.

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:48pm:

If you think you know better, out with it.

You're missing the point. Its not about which particular random internet opinion happens to "get it right" - its the flaw of using a single secondary source and declaring "this is exactly what islam says about this particular topic" - without acknowledging that there exists different points of view. My point was that if you're going to use an evidenced based approach to "prove" what Islam says about any given topic, then you go back to the ultimate authority - the quran itself.

But for the record, there is no mention anywhere in the quran that blasphemers must be put to death. There is however, an entire surah (6) that provides a model for how blasphemers should be engaged in dialogue. Thus common sense should tell you that if death was the default prescription for blasphemy, such a model would be redundant.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #13 - Sep 27^th, 2012 at 11:59pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 11:45pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:35pm:

What does this verse mean?
5/33

That committing war and terrorism against islam is punishable by death. Fairly obvious I would have thought. Also you can't just ask "what does verse 5:33 mean" - its basically inseparable from 5:32 and 5:34.

You're missing the point. Its not about which particular random internet opinion happens to "get it right"

So 5"33 cannot be used as a justification for those who wage a verbal war against the prophet?

As for 5:32 it does not apply to muslims have you even read it ?
Since when did muslims become known as the children of Israel?
Quote:

Because of that we decreed upon the children of Israel.....

http://quran.com/5/32

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« Last Edit: Sep 28^th, 2012 at 12:16am by Baronvonrort »

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #14 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 8:43am

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 11:59pm:

So 5"33 cannot be used as a justification for those who wage a verbal war against the prophet?

no, only physical violence against the islamic state. This should be clear by the fact that elsewhere insulters and blasphemers are to be dealt with patiently - either ignore them or attempt to convince them to desist calmly through argument.

Quote:

As for 5:32 it does not apply to muslims have you even read it ?
Since when did muslims become known as the children of Israel?

The ancestors of the muslims. Before islam was revealed through the last prophet, the only "muslims" were the jews. Surah 5 is giving the muslims a history lesson, and in 5:32 it is explaining that originally "muslims" (children of Israel) were ordered not to commit murder, and this order was passed on through the ages by the prophets (same prophets as muslims), but through time many jews transgressed from this order. There is no reason to think this order wouldn't apply to muslims

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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