Australian Politics Forum - Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)

Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #15 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 10:50am

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 8:43am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 11:59pm:

So 5"33 cannot be used as a justification for those who wage a verbal war ?
As for 5:32 it does not apply to muslims have you even read it ?
Since when did muslims become known as the children of Israel?

The ancestors of the muslims. Before islam was revealed through the last prophet, the only "muslims" were the jews.
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The jews have never been muslims, Mohammad tried to impose himself as a prophet on the jewish religion, he adopted many dietry and dress rules from the jews,he even fasted on the jewish day of atonement hoping the jews would accept him.
The jews rejected Mohammad as a prophet in the jewish religion, this is covered in the Sira of Ibn hisham amongst other books.

Surah 5 is giving the muslims a history lesson, and in 5:32 it is explaining that originally "muslims" (children of Israel) were ordered not to commit murder, and this order was passed on through the ages by the prophets (same prophets as muslims), but through time many jews transgressed from this order. There is no reason to think this order wouldn't apply to muslims

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5:32 was copied from the Talmud Sanhedrin 4.1 22a that is where it originated from it is a jewish verse.

If the muslims are known as the children of Israel then why do the Palestinians and other muslims whinge about Israel, are the Palestinians not the children of Israel?

Does the Quran refer to muslims as the children of Israel in other verses like this one?
And we certianly gave moses the scipture , so do not be in doubt over his meeting.
And we made the Torah a guide for the children of Israel.
http://quran.com/32/23

The Quran says the Torah is the guide for the children of Israel, do muslims follow the Torah or the Quran?

You can claim muslims are the children of Israel yet i dont think anyone else will believe it;.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #16 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 11:46am

oh dear God Barenvonrort how long we gonna continue this stupid dance? One of us is attempting to debate in a reasoned and logical manner, the other is "responding" with silly innane single point replies.

Can you please use your brain for just 5 minutes?

Islam goes back to the time of Adam and Eve. The quran has the story of the garden of eden, the serpent the tree of knowledge yada yada yada. Adam was created by the God of muslims, he worshipped the God of muslims - therefore he was a muslim - the first muslim. In fact he was also the first prophet of the muslims. Of course until the time of prophet Mohammad, islam was not revealed to mankind in its final form - but that is not the same as saying there were no muslims before Mohammad. The religion of islam was passed on through the jews, and through the Torah (revealed to Moses - another islamic prophet). Abraham - the father of the Israelites - is proclaimed to be a muslim loud and clear, along with his descendents in verses 2:130 - 2:133:

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2:131: When his Lord said to him, "Submit", he said "I have submitted [in Islam] to the Lord of the worlds."

2:132: And Abraham instructed his sons [to do the same] and [so did] Jacob, [saying], "O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this religion, so do not die except while you are Muslims."

2:133: Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Is that clear enough for you? Any more idiotic claims you want me to debunk?

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #17 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 12:30pm

Quote:

You're missing the point. Its not about which particular random internet opinion happens to "get it right" - its the flaw of using a single secondary source and declaring "this is exactly what islam says about this particular topic" - without acknowledging that there exists different points of view.

Gandalf, would you agree that the fact that no-one here actually made that declaration, and Baron actually asked for opinions from Muslims, renders your point moot? Or is your purpose in life to point out the obvious over and over again?

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My point was that if you're going to use an evidenced based approach to "prove" what Islam says about any given topic, then you go back to the ultimate authority - the quran itself.

Most people are not interested in discovering the Koran and arguing with Muslims about the true meaning of Islam. They couldn't care less about it. What interests people is what Muslims think Islam is. You can think anything you want about Islam, but if there is a horde of Muslims out to kill anyone with a different interpretation, it is not going to help you.

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There is however, an entire surah (6) that provides a model for how blasphemers should be engaged in dialogue. Thus common sense should tell you that if death was the default prescription for blasphemy, such a model would be redundant.

Are you saying that your opinion differs from Abu's? Are you a Muslim?

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This should be clear by the fact that elsewhere insulters and blasphemers are to be dealt with patiently - either ignore them or attempt to convince them to desist calmly through argument.

What if that does not work and they continue with their blasphemy? Should Muslims tolerate people successfully promoting blasphemy, heresy etc and only respond with words?

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There is no reason to think this order wouldn't apply to muslims

We tried similar logic with Abu before, but he insisted that unless the Koran states it unequivocably, it is not Islamic law.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #18 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 1:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

oh dear God Barenvonrort how long we gonna continue this stupid dance? One of us is attempting to debate in a reasoned and logical manner, the other is "responding" with silly innane single point replies.
Quote:

Are you calling me god? Is that something muslims are forbidden to do?
You are not attempting to debate you are using circular reasoning which is common among religious people, substitute buy-bull for Quran and this is what you are doing-
http://imageshack.us/a/img72/3908/circca.jpg

Can you please use your brain for just 5 minutes?
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can you use your brain for 1 minute?

Of course until the time of prophet Mohammad, islam was not revealed to mankind in its final form - but that is not the same as saying there were no muslims before Mohammad.
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Islam did not exist until Mohammad created it there was no Islam before Mohammad and therefore no muslims.

The religion of islam was passed on through the jews, and through the Torah (revealed to Moses - another islamic prophet). Abraham - the father of the Israelites - is proclaimed to be a muslim loud and clear,
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Islam did not exist you are using circular reasoning

Is that clear enough for you? Any more idiotic claims you want me to debunk?
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you have debunked nothing, all you show is that muslims do circular reasoning just like the christians

This is religious logic-

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #19 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 2:24pm

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 12:30pm:

[Gandalf, would you agree that the fact that no-one here actually made that declaration, and Baron actually asked for opinions from Muslims, renders your point moot? Or is your purpose in life to point out the obvious over and over again?

no freediver he said exactly that. His OP put the quote about offenders of the prophet should be executed as unquestioned fact of islamic doctrine. The opinion he asks for, if you look more closely, is about what punishment is proscribed for offending Allah. Besides, he also said it plain and clear in another thread:

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Islam does permit violence against those who insult Mohammad (pedophile bastard unworthy human)

The Islamic ideology says its ok to kill those who insult Mohammad which might explain the death toll from the recent video.

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Most people are not interested in discovering the Koran and arguing with Muslims about the true meaning of Islam. They couldn't care less about it. What interests people is what Muslims think Islam is. You can think anything you want about Islam, but if there is a horde of Muslims out to kill anyone with a different interpretation, it is not going to help you.

Normally I would agree 100% with you, but in this particular case I am disputing a particular claim about a specific part of islamic doctrine - not what muslims think they know about it. Education is important for muslims and non-muslims alike. If we are going to have an informed debate about this problem, then we need to start from a basis from a jurisprudence point of view. Baron failed in that prerequisite, and thus derailed the discussion from the beginning. I'm merely attempting to get it back on track. So yeah, it kinda is important.

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Are you saying that your opinion differs from Abu's? Are you a Muslim?

I don't know Abu, but if he is saying that islam proscribes death for blasphemy - then he is wrong. He is not alone though, its clearly a widely held belief amongst muslims, unfortunately. Like I said, education is needed amongst muslims and non-muslims alike.

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What if that does not work and they continue with their blasphemy? Should Muslims tolerate people successfully promoting blasphemy, heresy etc and only respond with words?

Either engage them in dialogue, or ignore them altogether. The quran stresses patience and moderation when dealing with these things.

Quote:

We tried similar logic with Abu before, but he insisted that unless the Koran states it unequivocably, it is not Islamic law.

Well yeah, thats kinda the point. The quran never states unequivically anywhere that blasphemers are to be killed. What more is to be said?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #20 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 2:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 2:24pm:

His OP put the quote about offenders of the prophet should be executed as unquestioned fact of islamic doctrine.

I don't know Abu, but if he is saying that islam proscribes death for blasphemy - then he is wrong. He is not alone though, its clearly a widely held belief amongst muslims, unfortunately.

That quote was from an Islamic source do you realise that?

You say it is wrong yet you have not cited any evidence to prove why,all you have given is an opinion that contradicts the scholarly consensus.

The Quran tells you it is clear and without doubt so why cant muslims ever agree on anything from the niqab to terror?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #21 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 2:47pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 1:19pm:

.
[quote]Are you calling me god? Is that something muslims are forbidden to do?
You are not attempting to debate you are using circular reasoning which is common among religious people

ok Baron. I'll tell you what "not attempting to debate" means - it means not presenting any sort of argument except for throwing in cool sounding phrases like "circular argument" - which you obviously have no idea of what it means.

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Islam did not exist until Mohammad created it there was no Islam before Mohammad and therefore no muslims.

yup - just cause you say so. Did you happen to take a look at the verses I just quoted for you where the quran specifically makes mention of Abraham and his descendents as muslims?

I should add too, this is not about what jews themselves think about the authenticity of islam - they rejected the prophet's revelation, and so obviously don't agree with the quran. No, this is about whether or not the quran in referring to "the children of Israel" was talking about muslims. And anyone who employs but an ounce of common sense can see that when the quran specifically refers to the father of the children of Israel, as well as his descendents as "muslim", that it was talking about muslims.

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Islam did not exist you are using circular reasoning

ooh there that cool term 'circular reasoning' again. Shame you have no idea what it means, and throw it in at the most inappropriate time lol

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #22 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 3:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 2:47pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 1:19pm:

.
[quote]Are you calling me god? Is that something muslims are forbidden to do?
You are not attempting to debate you are using circular reasoning which is common among religious people

ok Baron. I'll tell you what "not attempting to debate" means - it means not presenting any sort of argument except for throwing in cool sounding phrases like "circular argument" - which you obviously have no idea of what it means.

Quote:

Islam did not exist until Mohammad created it there was no Islam before Mohammad and therefore no muslims.

yup - just cause you say so. Did you happen to take a look at the verses I just quoted for you where the quran specifically makes mention of Abraham and his descendents as muslims?

I should add too, this is not about what jews themselves think about the authenticity of islam - they rejected the prophet's revelation, and so obviously don't agree with the quran. No, this is about whether or not the quran in referring to "the children of Israel" was talking about muslims. And anyone who employs but an ounce of common sense can see that when the quran specifically refers to the father of the children of Israel, as well as his descendents as "muslim", that it was talking about muslims.

Quote:

Islam did not exist you are using circular reasoning

ooh there that cool term 'circular reasoning' again. Shame you have no idea what it means, and throw it in at the most inappropriate time lol

Religious people mistake circular reasoning for debate, they are incapable of seeing past a dusty old book from the dark ages.

You are not debating you have a fixed mindset that ignores whatever goes against your religious beliefs.

So you finally concede the jews rejected Mohammad as a prophet in the jewish religion?
The reality is the jews called bullshit on Mohammads status as a prophet in the jewish religion yet you somehow believe you can claim their prophets as muslims despite the fact Mohammad was clearly rejected by the jews.
The jews rejected Mohammad do you see how absurd it is to claim the jews were muslims when the jews rejected Mohammad and Islam?

Explain this verse in the Quran which says the children of Israel follow the torah?
Quote:

And we made the Torah guidance for the children of Israel.
http://quran.com/32/23

In the Quran Allah says the Torah is guidance for the children of Israel.
Do the jews follow the Quran or the Torah?
Do muslims follow the Quran or the Torah?

i

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #23 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:07pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 3:25pm:

The jews rejected Mohammad do you see how absurd it is to claim the jews were muslims when the jews rejected Mohammad and Islam?

you still don't understand. Let me try and break it down...

Do you remember the original argument? It has to do with your claim that (in your words) "As for 5:32 it does not apply to muslims have you even read it ?"

You were disputing my contention that 5:33 is a logical continuation of 5:32 - since as you claim, 5:32 doesn't apply to muslims, but 5:33 does. So we are talking about what the quran says about the children of Israel - do you understand that it is has nothing whatsoever to do with how the jews treated the revelation of Muhammad?

5:32 applies to muslims because according to the quran, the children of Israel - which 5:32 is referring to - are muslims, just like the muslims today (minus the quran). And I can prove this quite easily by referring to 2:130-133 - where it specifically states that the children of Israel - ie Abraham and his descendents had submitted to the one true God, and were "muslims" (the verse's exact word). Is that clear enough yet?

Quote:

Explain this verse in the Quran which says the children of Israel follow the torah?

Quote:

And we made the Torah guidance for the children of Israel.

In the Quran Allah says the Torah is guidance for the children of Israel.
Do the jews follow the Quran or the Torah?
Do muslims follow the Quran or the Torah?

urghh

there was no quran for the muslims before Muhammad. The Torah for the muslims is divine revelation revealed to the prophet Musa (Moses). This quote from wiki should explain it:

Quote:

The Qur'an mentions the word Torah eighteen times and confirms that it was The Word Of God. It, however, also states that, over time, there have been additions and subtractions from the original text.

so yes, the pre-Muhammad muslims followed the Torah. Pre-Muhammad jews and muslims were one in the same according to the quran. I really don't know how that can be so difficult to understand.i

[/quote]

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #24 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:07pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Quote:

Explain this verse in the Quran which says the children of Israel follow the torah?

[quote]And we made the Torah guidance for the children of Israel.

In the Quran Allah says the Torah is guidance for the children of Israel.
Do the jews follow the Quran or the Torah?
Do muslims follow the Quran or the Torah?

urghh

there was no quran for the muslims before Muhammad.

Do the jews follow the Torah or the Quran?

Do muslims follow the Quran or Torah?

Does the Quran say the children of Israel follow the torah?Yes
Quote:

And we made the torah a guidance for the children of Israel
http://quran.com/32/23

Blind freddy can see the children of Israel are jews, 5/32 applies to jews.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #25 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 5:18pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:51pm:

Blind freddy can see the children of Israel are jews, 5/32 applies to jews.

yes! - jews who the quran specifically said were muslims!!

Quote:

2:132: And Abraham instructed his sons [to do the same] and [so did] Jacob, [saying], "O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this religion, so do not die except while you are Muslims."

Who were the 'children of Israel? I'll give you a hint - Jacob was named 'Israel' by God - according to both jewish and islamic doctrine. The "jews" were descendents of Jacob - you know the 12 tribes? The 12 tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob. Please reread 2:132, because I can't believe its possible you are missing this most basic point! The descendents of Jacob were jews - do you agree?? Now here's the really important bit: The descendents of Jacob, according to quran 2:130-133 were also muslims - thus the 'children of Israel' referenced in 5:32, were none-other-than the descendents of Jacob (Israel) - who were both jews and muslims according to the quran.

5:32 applies to muslims - blind freddy can see that.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #26 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 5:24pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:07pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Quote:

Explain this verse in the Quran which says the children of Israel follow the torah?

[quote]And we made the Torah guidance for the children of Israel.

In the Quran Allah says the Torah is guidance for the children of Israel.
Do the jews follow the Quran or the Torah?
Do muslims follow the Quran or the Torah?

urghh

there was no quran for the muslims before Muhammad.

Do the jews follow the Torah or the Quran?

Do muslims follow the Quran or Torah?

Does the Quran say the children of Israel follow the torah?Yes
Quote:

And we made the torah a guidance for the children of Israel
http://quran.com/32/23

Blind freddy can see the children of Israel are jews, 5/32 applies to jews.

Please answer these questions Gandalf, why are you avoiding them?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #27 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 6:36pm

I'm not avoiding them I've already answered them. Seriously dude, this is a really obvious and simple concept. Here are your answers - again:

1. The jews follow the Torah
2. Muslims followed the Torah until the quran was revealed
3. The quran says that the 'children of Israel' (muslims according to verse 2:130-133) followed the torah - divinely revealed to the prophet Musa (Moses).

conclusions we can draw from the above:
1. for muslims, the Torah was a divinely revealed text, and therefore very much part of Islam
2. The Torah was one of the holy texts muslims were instructed to follow and revere before the quran was revealed
3. 'children of Israel' and muslims were (hint: key word is "were" - past tense) one in the same.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #28 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 6:39pm

Quote:

no freediver he said exactly that.

Try quoting what he actually said then.

Quote:

His OP put the quote about offenders of the prophet should be executed as unquestioned fact of islamic doctrine.

You are imagining things gandalf. Here's a tip: stick to what people actually say, not what you imagine they meant to say. It helps to avoid stupid arguments like this one.

Quote:

Baron failed in that prerequisite, and thus derailed the discussion from the beginning.

It looked to me like he was asking a very simple question. It's funny how people can interpret the same thing so differently. That's why you should stick to what he actually said. Maybe you should think of him as Muhammed.

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I'm merely attempting to get it back on track. So yeah, it kinda is important.

Back to the one true topic?

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I don't know Abu, but if he is saying that islam proscribes death for blasphemy - then he is wrong.

I provided a quote of him saying that.

Quote:

He is not alone though, its clearly a widely held belief amongst muslims, unfortunately. Like I said, education is needed amongst muslims and non-muslims alike.

I think it is the Muslims that need educating. It does not really matter to everyone else whether the Muslims are correct or incorrect in their interpretation of Islam. Do you imagine it comforts people getting killed for blasphemy that the people doing it are wrong according to your interpretation of Islam?

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Either engage them in dialogue, or ignore them altogether. The quran stresses patience and moderation when dealing with these things.

Wow, that sounds very different to the Islam Abu has presented here. I wonder if Abu would consider you an apostate. He doesn't take kindly to apostates.

Quote:

Well yeah, thats kinda the point. The quran never states unequivically anywhere that blasphemers are to be killed. What more is to be said?

I am interested in more detail about why so many Muslims have it wrong. Is the death penalty for apostasy also incorrect? Also, are you in a minority of Muslims with these beliefs? Are you a 'Koran only' Muslim? Are you even a Muslim?

Quote:

I should add too, this is not about what jews themselves think about the authenticity of islam - they rejected the prophet's revelation, and so obviously don't agree with the quran. No, this is about whether or not the quran in referring to "the children of Israel" was talking about muslims. And anyone who employs but an ounce of common sense can see that when the quran specifically refers to the father of the children of Israel, as well as his descendents as "muslim", that it was talking about muslims.

I am happy to let Muslims decide what Islam is, but I think it is a bit of a stretch for them to claim all the Jewish heritage as Muslim, and all the Jews that existed prior to Muhammed. Christians for example say that Jesus was a Jew. Trying to flip this on it's head and say that Abraham was a Christian is just silly.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #29 - Sep 28^th, 2012 at 7:45pm

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 6:39pm:

Try quoting what he actually said then.

Really? I pointed to what he said in the OP - is it really necessary for me to quote what is available by clicking on page 1? Did you read the OP? Did you notice what I pointed out - that he is not asking for opinions about what he is quoting, but rather what is the punishment for offending Allah? Besides, I already quoted what he said in another thread - which obviously mirrors what he thinks here:
Quote:

Islam does permit violence against those who insult Mohammad (pedophile bastard unworthy human)

The Islamic ideology says its ok to kill those who insult Mohammad which might explain the death toll from the recent video.

Baron also makes it clear he is not interested in a rational debate by using the deliberately offensive term "pedophile bastard unworthy human".

Quote:

Here's a tip: stick to what people actually say, not what you imagine they meant to say. It helps to avoid stupid arguments like this one.

it was a stupid debate long before I responded to anything. But you do raise one important point - and that relates to what he didn't say. He presents one particular point of view without making any attempt to acknowledge that this is only one of many points of view about this subject. He also didn't offer any sort of analysis on the source he quoted, and any shortcomings (which I already pointed out) that might exist. Obviously he is not interested in discussing the topic - which is clear when seeing his views on the subject - like what I quoted from another thread. He is only interested in spamming the forum with his bigotry and hate.

Quote:

It looked to me like he was asking a very simple question. It's funny how people can interpret the same thing so differently.

well I interpret "What is the punishment for insulting Allah, i cant find anything " as erm... asking what the punishment for insulting Allah is. There's nothing wrong with this discussion, but thats not what the thread is about. Why isn't he asking about the authenticity of the source, or what are the alternative views to this? Answer - because he is not interested in discussing it.

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I think it is the Muslims that need educating. It does not really matter to everyone else whether the Muslims are correct or incorrect in their interpretation of Islam.

You don't think it matters when non-muslims base their opinion that islam (and by extension muslims) is evil purely based on their misunderstanding of what islamic doctrine prescribes? Islam-related violence isn't necessarily a one way street. Non-muslim's misconceptions about islam and muslims can absolutely lead to violence against muslims. Ignorance is the basis of prejudice against any group - and that goes for muslim's view of non-muslims just as much as non-muslim's view of muslims.

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Wow, that sounds very different to the Islam Abu has presented here. I wonder if Abu would consider you an apostate. He doesn't take kindly to apostates.

Maybe you should ask Abu that.

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I am interested in more detail about why so many Muslims have it wrong.

Well there are a lot of muslims for a start. If just 1% of muslims are expressing extreme views, thats still a relatively lot of people - but the point is, its only a tiny percentage of all muslims. Maybe the question you should be asking - given that the vast majority of muslims didn't go out rioting or calling for beheadings - is why so many muslims got it right?

Is the death penalty for apostasy also incorrect? Also, are you in a minority of Muslims with these beliefs? Are you a 'Koran only' Muslim? Are you even a Muslim?

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I am happy to let Muslims decide what Islam is, but I think it is a bit of a stretch for them to claim all the Jewish heritage as Muslim

Its just a simple statement of what the quran says. I'm not trying to argue over what the jews or christians or any other non-muslim believes, its a simply statement of what muslims believe according to the quran.

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Christians for example say that Jesus was a Jew. Trying to flip this on it's head and say that Abraham was a Christian is just silly.

that doesn't even make sense. If the Bible said that Abraham or Jesus or the Easter Bunny was a christian, then thats what it says, and in which case I would dispute anyone who tried to claim otherwise. I'm not saying whether any of it is right or wrong, just simply stating what the quran says. Is that so hard to understand??

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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