Australian Politics Forum - Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)

freediver

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #90 - Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 10:51pm

Why can't you answer these question Abu?

freediver wrote on Oct 1^st, 2012 at 10:22pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2012 at 5:52pm:

Abu, before you get all wound up over grammar, did you notice that gandalf disagreed with you on what the Islamic punishment for blasphemy is? Which one of you is correct, and why the disagreement?

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2012 at 7:44pm:

So why the disagreement? And which one represents the majority view of Muslims?

Gandalf seemed to imply that there were different punishments for apostasy, insulting Muhammed, and insulting Allah. Do you think they should all be punished with death by stoning?

freediver wrote on Sep 30^th, 2012 at 9:56pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 30^th, 2012 at 9:52pm:

It's well known that 90% of the traffic on this forum are all 1 or 2 sad and lonely individuals who enjoy playing "dress ups".

Can you please elaborate Abu?

Gandalf can you please clarify what you think the correct Islamic punishments are for apostasy, insulting Muhammed, and insulting Allah?

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh) Reply #91 - Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 11:03pm Your discussion on that topic is with gandalf, not me.
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Cobra

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #92 - Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 11:05pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 10:19pm:

Cobra wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 9:59pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 8:50pm:

sanofi wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 8:34pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 10:43pm:

Quote:

I am going to take a guess and assume your question applies to what i think the punishment in Australian law should be

See what I mean about trying to get a straight answer out of him?

I think 'abu' answers are acute.

I would like to hear his thoughts on the hadith/sunna dilemma (I see it as a dilemma) as

my understanding of "hadith/sunna" despite reading, is inadequate.

A lot of us feel like that, after reading the hadith [and the Koran] too ! Cheesy

Why do you make faces about the sunna?

At least it is true not like your bible.

gomtuu,

As i have said here, on OzPol, many times;
I am happy for others to believe whatever they want to believe.

But what i object to, is the violent conduct of moslems, based upon that belief.

Me ?

I believe in the truth of science! Grin

[....well, I believe in some of the truth's of science.]

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Newton's Third Law of Motion

Psalms 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

Isaiah 48:22
There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

Thankyou for your apology which I do not accept.
Our only dispute is what you call Islam I call tribal.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #93 - Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 11:06pm

freediver wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 10:50pm:

Quote:

According to your "analysis" of Muslim/Hindu violence

You mean the question? So I was right? This is merely yet another example of you demanding proof of the existence of a question?

Quote:

Apparently Muslims just go around killing people for no reason?

Well know, as gandalf already pointed out, and I conceded too, they can always give you an excuse.

Quote:

Now I've shown you statistics from a few of the biggest Hindu/Muslim altercations in recent times

An example is not a statistic Abu.

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which clearly show that Muslims were the ones mostly being killed

No they don't. All it proves is your willingness to ignore half the evidence. This is the most pointless game of all Abu. You are not even pretending to be unbiased, and you ask me to attempt to counter it with more bias. I do not need to provide alternatives to show that the evidence and statistics that you and gandalf have presented are full of holes. I merely have to point out that they are full of holes.

Quote:

would you like to alter your original claims and apologise for your disrespect of those Muslims who were victims of this violence?

Playing the victim card again eh Abu?

So bring us a link to your "other half", the fantasy alternative reality where it's Muslims who killed all the Hindus in these riots.

As always, you know full well you can't, so you'll spend 3 pages in "counter chatter" mode, claiming nobody answers your questions.

Stop being such a dishonest person and just admit you made a serious error of judgement making those claims, without even knowing the slightest facts about the events.

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Yadda

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #94 - Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 11:13pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 11:06pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 10:50pm:

Quote:

According to your "analysis" of Muslim/Hindu violence

You mean the question? So I was right? This is merely yet another example of you demanding proof of the existence of a question?

Quote:

Apparently Muslims just go around killing people for no reason?

Well know, as gandalf already pointed out, and I conceded too, they can always give you an excuse.

Quote:

Now I've shown you statistics from a few of the biggest Hindu/Muslim altercations in recent times

An example is not a statistic Abu.

Quote:

which clearly show that Muslims were the ones mostly being killed

No they don't. All it proves is your willingness to ignore half the evidence. This is the most pointless game of all Abu. You are not even pretending to be unbiased, and you ask me to attempt to counter it with more bias. I do not need to provide alternatives to show that the evidence and statistics that you and gandalf have presented are full of holes. I merely have to point out that they are full of holes.

Quote:

would you like to alter your original claims and apologise for your disrespect of those Muslims who were victims of this violence?

Playing the victim card again eh Abu?

So bring us a link to your "other half", the fantasy alternative reality where it's Muslims who killed all the Hindus in these riots.

As always, you know full well you can't, so you'll spend 3 pages in "counter chatter" mode, claiming nobody answers your questions.

Stop being such a dishonest person and just admit you made a serious error of judgement making those claims, without even knowing the slightest facts about the events.

You're definitely wearing him down, FD. Grin

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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abu_rashid

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #95 - Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 7:35am

Yadda wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 11:13pm:

You're definitely wearing him down, FD. Grin

Well facts don't seem to carry much weight here, so it seems wearing down is about all that ever works.

Debating with people who have no concept of losing the discussion when they can't bring facts and the other side presents the facts, is a waste of time.

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freediver

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #96 - Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 7:39am

It is the topic of the thread Abu. I find it very strange that Gandalf can post here telling everyone that he knows the real meaning of the Koran and that Abu is lying about Islam, and Abu avoids the issue like the plague.

Abu, do you make a distinction between the punishments for apostasy, insulting Muhammed, and insulting Allah? Is it death by stoning for all of them?

Who, out of you and Gandalf, is closer to the majority view of Muslims?

Other than the obvious (trying to avoid the question), why are you demanding I provide proof of a claim you cannot bring yourself to deny? Why is it that you avoid both topics, but post profusely on this particular issue (despite not actually addressing it) while completely ignoring the more pertinent issues that Gandalf has brought up?

Who do you think the puppet masters are?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #97 - Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 7:53am

gandalf is free to express his opinion, as it doesn't contravene the rules of the forum.

I partake in those discussions that I choose to, you should know that. I am not easily goaded into answering each and every thing you happen to ask fd.

I am not particularly interested in challenging gandalf, he's free to express his views, and I will leave it at that.

If you want to engage him, go for it.

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magpie

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #98 - Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 9:15am

brumbie wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 6:37pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 6:02pm:

brumbie wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 5:59pm:

It seems that because we didn't stop Sob's
muppets from joining and consequently turning the forum into a kindergarden quickly enough that the disease is now spreading and everybody who feels under attack now has brothers and sisters joining the forum to help vindicate themselves.This should have been nipped in the bud a few days ago.

I don't have any brothers and sisters. Sad

All of you, on OzPol, are the teachers of my heart.

Cry

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Ah Lennie..."sundown you better take care if i catch you creepin round my back stairs"

a tsunami is caused by an earthquake, a slight rumble can be heard, and the monitor might shake. As the waves approach trolls, the water near the thread will recede dramatically, leaving Frances-fish, xantians god-botherers and such like 'beached'. (following a 'sucking* sound'). A clear rumble should be heard. The fast moving waves will start to get higher as the seafloor gets shallower near the coastline. This forms a 20m wall of waves (a tsunami) and the waves will crash onto shore and rush inland. Sometimes, warnings are given to the trolls.
*Note that 'sucking' means being sucked in, and is not a vulgarity.

does anyone know what a metaphore is?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #99 - Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 2:43pm

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 7:39am:

It is the topic of the thread Abu. I find it very strange that Gandalf can post here telling everyone that he knows the real meaning of the Koran and that Abu is lying about Islam, and Abu avoids the issue like the plague.

Abu, do you make a distinction between the punishments for apostasy, insulting Muhammed, and insulting Allah? Is it death by stoning for all of them?

Who, out of you and Gandalf, is closer to the majority view of Muslims?

Other than the obvious (trying to avoid the question), why are you demanding I provide proof of a claim you cannot bring yourself to deny? Why is it that you avoid both topics, but post profusely on this particular issue (despite not actually addressing it) while completely ignoring the more pertinent issues that Gandalf has brought up?

Who do you think the puppet masters are?

Let me summarise the main points I have been making, and hopefully your questions will be (at least) partly answered.

1. I never claimed to know "the real meaning" of the quran. However with regards to insulting the prophet, or Allah, or blasphemy, I merely made the point that nothing is mentioned in the quran. There is not even a definition of blasphemy - anywhere. Thats the point I was making about Baron's original source - which claimed that imposing the death sentence on people who insult the prophet has a quranic basis. I say, how can this possibly be claimed if the quran doesn't even specify a death sentence for insulting the prophet?

2. Where did I call Abu a liar? I don't even know his position on this issue, nor have I engaged him in any sort of discussion, so I have definitely never accused him of lying. Also, even if I believed he was wrong in his interpretation of the quran, thats not the same as lying. Anyway, I do find your obsession with wanting to be the 'go-between' for myself and Abu rather amusing.

3. I don't know what the majority of muslims believe about the sentence for insulting the prophet/blasphemy, but there are lots of surveys conducted on these issues from year to year. No doubt the attitudes differ vastly from region to region. PEW research are likely conducting surveys on this very issue of insulting the prophet as we speak. Here's an idea, why don't you look it up yourself and answer your own question? I'm sure you can find lots of information by a simple google search.

4. The statistics I pointed you to (europol and FBI) do not sugarcoat islamic terrorism or make 9/11 seem like graffiti, I have no idea where you got that idea. What they do show is that actual documented cases of terrorism in the US and Europe respectively demonstrate clearly that almost all acts of terrorism in those two areas are committed by non-muslims. I find this relevant given the widely held view that exists in the west that 'not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims'. How you could possibly think this fact is irrelevant, in the context of blowing (no pun intended) islamic terrorism completely out of proportion, is frankly beyond me.

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freediver

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #100 - Oct 4^th, 2012 at 8:32am

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 7:53am:

gandalf is free to express his opinion, as it doesn't contravene the rules of the forum.

I partake in those discussions that I choose to, you should know that. I am not easily goaded into answering each and every thing you happen to ask fd.

I am not particularly interested in challenging gandalf, he's free to express his views, and I will leave it at that.

If you want to engage him, go for it.

You are 'engaging' the 72 virgins discussion, though you haven't said much more there than you have to Gandalf. Other than the obvious (trying to avoid the question), why are you demanding I provide proof of a claim you cannot bring yourself to deny? Why is it that you avoid both topics, but post profusely on this particular issue (despite not actually addressing it) while completely ignoring the more pertinent issues that Gandalf has brought up? Were you goaded into responding, even though you could not bring yourself to say anything on the matter?

Quote:

I never claimed to know "the real meaning" of the quran.

You claimed to speak on behalf of the majority of Muslims, while refusing to say whether you are a Muslim yourself.

Quote:

However with regards to insulting the prophet, or Allah, or blasphemy, I merely made the point that nothing is mentioned in the quran. There is not even a definition of blasphemy - anywhere.

Muhammed had people killed for insulting him. Just because they don't highlight it for you under a chapter called blasphemy does not mean it isn't there.

Quote:

Anyway, I do find your obsession with wanting to be the 'go-between' for myself and Abu rather amusing.

Actually I have been trying to get you two to talk to each other. I have criticised you in this very thread for asking me to act as the go-between.

Quote:

I don't know what the majority of muslims believe about the sentence for insulting the prophet/blasphemy

What do you believe?

Quote:

The statistics I pointed you to (europol and FBI) do not sugarcoat islamic terrorism or make 9/11 seem like graffiti, I have no idea where you got that idea.

Perhaps because they treat events like 9/11 and the London bombings as being equal to a graffitti attack. Have you figured out yet what the statistics are actually measuring? If not, how can you possibly claim that they put Islamic terrorism in context, rather than removing all context? Don't you think it is a bit silly to post statistics and tell everyone it proves something when you don't even know what it measures? They certainly aren't a measure of body count, because that would put Islamic terrorism in perspective.

Quote:

I find this relevant given the widely held view that exists in the west that 'not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims'.

There you go with your strawmen again. You cannot counter anything that is actually posted here so you make something up instead.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #101 - Oct 4^th, 2012 at 12:34pm

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 8:32am:

You are 'engaging' the 72 virgins discussion, though you haven't said much more there than you have to Gandalf.

Not really, just pointing out the obvious fabrications woven into the translation and also the suspicious source of the translations. That's not called engaging, it's called exposing.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 8:32am:

Why is it that you avoid both topics,

It's not called avoidance fd, it's called lack of interest due to the absence, in your case, of an intellectual contemporary. You've provided no discussions that really warrant a response, they warrant little more than derision or perhaps pity.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 8:32am:

but post profusely on this particular issue

I do? Where? You post profusely on these issues, I merely mock you.

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freediver

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #102 - Oct 4^th, 2012 at 5:55pm

Quote:

It's not called avoidance fd, it's called lack of interest due to the absence, in your case, of an intellectual contemporary.

For someone with no interest you are making a lot of demands of other people. You seem to feel compelled to respond, even when you have nothing to add. That is never a sign of lack of interest.

Quote:

You've provided no discussions that really warrant a response

So why so many responses? Why the unusual demands for proof of something that you don't deny?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #103 - Oct 5^th, 2012 at 12:27am

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 8:32am:

You claimed to speak on behalf of the majority of Muslims, while refusing to say whether you are a Muslim yourself.

No I didn't. Please show me where I claimed to speak on behalf of the majority of muslims. In fact I stated very clearly in my last post "I don't know what the majority of muslims believe about the sentence for insulting the prophet/blasphemy".

Quote:

Muhammed had people killed for insulting him. Just because they don't highlight it for you under a chapter called blasphemy does not mean it isn't there.

There is no death sentence for blasphemy ordained by the quran - either explicitly or implicitly. If you believe there is, please show me the relevant passage.

Quote:

What do you believe?

What do I believe about what? If its in reference to what you just quoted, then I believe the quran doesn't ordain a death sentence for blasphemy. I am genuinely confused by this line of enquiry, because I have repeated this about 3 times already. Exactly what belief of mine are you trying to extract from me??

Quote:

Perhaps because they treat events like 9/11 and the London bombings as being equal to a graffitti attack.

Who? Where? You keep repeating this, surely if such a comparison has been made you can give me an example. Please show me where either europol or the FBI treat events like 9/11 as graffiti attacks.

Quote:

Have you figured out yet what the statistics are actually measuring?

Uh terrorism? So what is terrorism? according to Europol its:
Quote:

terrorist offences are intentional acts which, given their nature or context,may seriously damage a country or an international organisation when committed
with the aim of
• seriously intimidating a population, or
• unduly compelling a government or international
organisation to perform or abstain
from performing an act, or
• seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental
political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/tesat2009_0.pdf

Quote:

If not, how can you possibly claim that they put Islamic terrorism in context, rather than removing all context?

so now we know that neither europol or the FBI have ever compared islamic terrorism to graffiti, or performed any other similar whitewashing, what exactly is this "removing all context" that you speak of? Of course I know you are referring to the death tolls - ok so lets talk about death tolls. As I mentioned before, there has not been a single death on US soil since 9/11 as a result of islamic terrorism. In Europe, since the last islamic terrorist attack in 2005, the death toll from all forms of terrorism per year has been in single digit figures. Thats islamic as well as non-islamic. Again, thats not whitewashing islamic terrorism - it absolutely remains a serious concern - but as the RAND corporation argues, the threat has been greatly exaggerated.

Quote:

There you go with your strawmen again. You cannot counter anything that is actually posted here so you make something up instead.

Please explain what strawman arguments I am making. Seems to me you are just not grasping some incredibly simple concepts here.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Penalty for insulting the Prophet (pbuh)
Reply #104 - Oct 5^th, 2012 at 12:54pm

Quote:

No I didn't. Please show me where I claimed to speak on behalf of the majority of muslims.

Here are a few examples:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 7:49pm:

Well there are a lot of muslims for a start. If just 1% of muslims are expressing extreme views, thats still a relatively lot of people - but the point is, its only a tiny percentage of all muslims. Maybe the question you should be asking - given that the vast majority of muslims didn't go out rioting or calling for beheadings - is why so many muslims got it right?

Quote:

"significant portion" is neither here nor there. As I said there are a lot of muslims to start with - over 1 billion in fact. As I said, even just 1% being unrully can attract much international attention. The point though is that the disruption this minority can cause gives us little indication of the "good" behaviour of the vast majority of muslims. If you really want to get some handle of the context of all this, consider that the largest Muslim population in the world is a thriving democracy, with little disruption from extremists. The world's third largest muslim population coexists peacefully alongside hindus. Overall the vast majority of muslims have proven that they can live peacefully and harmoniously, and are not the rioters we saw these last weeks.

Quote:

Its just a simple statement of what the quran says. I'm not trying to argue over what the jews or christians or any other non-muslim believes, its a simply statement of what muslims believe according to the quran

Quote:

Exactly what belief of mine are you trying to extract from me??

Lets start with, do you believe what is in the Koran? Do you share the views of the people you claim to speak on behalf of? Or are you trying to project onto them what you want to believe?

Quote:

Who? Where? You keep repeating this, surely if such a comparison has been made you can give me an example. Please show me where either europol or the FBI treat events like 9/11 as graffiti attacks.

They are your statistics Gandalf. You presented them. I have asked you plenty of times to tell everyone what they are actually measuring. It is not up to me to do it for you. Are you now admitting you have no clue at all what they are measuring and you just parroted what you saw without thinking because it supported you conclusion? Do you really think that 9/11, the London and Madrid bombings etc represent only a tiny fraction of the terrorism in the US and Europe? Is someone covering up all the other attacks? This is just common sense Gandalf. I don't need to do any research to demonstrate how absurdly wrong you are.

Quote:

so now we know that neither europol or the FBI have ever compared islamic terrorism to graffiti, or performed any other similar whitewashing, what exactly is this "removing all context" that you speak of? Of course I know you are referring to the death tolls

Yes Gandalf, you are compeltely removing the death toll, as if it somehow does not matter to the extent of the threat.

Quote:

As I mentioned before, there has not been a single death on US soil since 9/11 as a result of islamic terrorism. In Europe, since the last islamic terrorist attack in 2005, the death toll from all forms of terrorism per year has been in single digit figures.

Pure genius - no mass slaughters by Muslim terrorists on a scale never seen before since the last mass slaughter by Muslim terrorists on a scale never seen before. What exactly are you trying to prove Gandalf?

Quote:

Again, thats not whitewashing islamic terrorism

What else would you call it?

Quote:

Please explain what strawman arguments I am making

I just pointed it out to you Gandalf. Read the quote I posted and my explanation of why it is a strawman.

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