Australian Politics Forum - Demolition of 8 West Bank villages

perceptions_now

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11694
Perth WA
Gender: male

Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages
Reply #90 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 11:50am

It seems that there are a couple of likely outcomes.

1) Both sides and their supporters, accept that the past can not be changed, but with good will & an acceptance of change on the part of both sides, a reasonable future is still negotiable.

2) Both sides and their supporters, continue their current approach to each other.

In respect of approach one, an outcome is possible where the past remains but all sides concentrate on a decent future for each other and eventually learn to live together, without tearing at the very fabric of their lives!

In respect of approach two, eventually the very fabric of their lives of both sides is completely torn asunder, no one wins & everyone loses!

The choices may & may not, be quite that stark, but they are the two essential choices!

To all involved, I suggest a step back & a deep breath, may actually be the first step forward, on a new path.

This path needs to be walked together, by both sides into possibly a more hopeful & brighter future.

Should both sides Fail to walk this path together, they may well condemn future generations, on both sides, to become permanently lost, in a dark wilderness of distress & distrust.

As always, the choice lays with you & with me, the choice is ours to make and I hope we make the right choice!

Back to top

IP Logged

abu_rashid

Gold Member

Offline

Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353

Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages
Reply #91 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 6:31pm

perceptions_now,

Your two scenarios have some merit, however what it doesn't take into account is what each side is working with. For the Palestinians, scenario two has already been chosen for them (ever since 1948) and they live it day in day out, so there's nothing for them to lose by continuing to work for the reversal of the entire situation, and nothing to gain by working for scenario one.

On the other hand we have have the Zionists who live according to the projected outcomes for scenario one (for the most part anyway), and so they have everything to lose by abandoning that.

Your scenarios, like most proposed by outsiders, do not take into account whatsoever what each side entered this situation with. It simply says "cut your losses and move on", and that's not a viable, and certainly not a just, solution.

The Palestinians did not ask for any of this to come to them, and they should not have to make any concession to right a wrong they did not invite nor cause in any way whatsoever. If the Zionists want to right the wrong they wrought, all power to them for that, but expecting the victim to do so is just ludicrous. It's like telling a rape victim to just move on and get along with their attacker, or worse that they have to marry them and live with them, because the rape cannot be undone.

Back to top

IP Logged

perceptions_now

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11694
Perth WA
Gender: male

Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages
Reply #92 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 7:52pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 6:31pm:

perceptions_now,

Your two scenarios have some merit, however what it doesn't take into account is what each side is working with. For the Palestinians, scenario two has already been chosen for them (ever since 1948) and they live it day in day out, so there's nothing for them to lose by continuing to work for the reversal of the entire situation, and nothing to gain by working for scenario one.

On the other hand we have have the Zionists who live according to the projected outcomes for scenario one (for the most part anyway), and so they have everything to lose by abandoning that.

Your scenarios, like most proposed by outsiders, do not take into account whatsoever what each side entered this situation with. It simply says "cut your losses and move on", and that's not a viable, and certainly not a just, solution.

The Palestinians did not ask for any of this to come to them, and they should not have to make any concession to right a wrong they did not invite nor cause in any way whatsoever. If the Zionists want to right the wrong they wrought, all power to them for that, but expecting the victim to do so is just ludicrous. It's like telling a rape victim to just move on and get along with their attacker, or worse that they have to marry them and live with them, because the rape cannot be undone.

I understand there are great difficulties involved, in moving forward, particularly for those party's most closely involved.

However, the two essential choices remain and if both party's can not take that first & subsequent steps, then outcome two will eventually take place and everyone will lose!

So, whilst I understand that there are past issues that will remain, from both perspectives, it is essential that the party's understand that if they both fail to communicate with each other now and they both fail to take the first step forward now, then they may well condemn future generations, on both sides, to oblivion.

Obviously, there will be some stumbling blocks along the way, but the end outcomes are very clear, so I hope the correct choices are made, by both sides of the dilemma and that outcomes are found that both party's can live with, instead of die for!

Back to top

IP Logged

Avram Horowitz

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 3153
Australia
Gender: male

Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages
Reply #93 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 8:14pm

I have said here before a few months previous that I believe that Israel has been just and fair for what is proposed.
I will not vote in this coming election but I think now with more younger generations and less who fought with no land in 1945 times that we make better progress.

People like me and my generation. Young overseas educated Israeli with wish to live in peace.
It is us that can deliver it.

Me I would be happy to work with moderate Palestinians to achieve two state solution.
Abbas and his Fatah was good option.
Hamas no. I will never see Israel work with terrorists.

So I think we work to agreements. For me on our side I would insist,
1) 2 states with West Bank and Gaza
2) Golan stay Israeli
3) Jerusalem must not be shared. It is 100% Israeli.
4) keep ID card system but allow Palestinians to cross Israel.
5) no more settlements in Judea and Samaria. Just existing ones to stay.
6) work with Fatah but insist the Palestinians denounce Hamas and Hizbollah.

I think the young generation is the key.
But I do go home knowledge that so many Aussies support us.
I will be sad to leave Australia.

Back to top

IP Logged

abu_rashid

Gold Member

Offline

Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353

Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages
Reply #94 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 10:56pm

perceptions_now wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 7:52pm:

I understand there are great difficulties involved, in moving forward, particularly for those party's most closely involved.

However, the two essential choices remain and if both party's can not take that first & subsequent steps, then outcome two will eventually take place and everyone will lose!

I think what you're neglecting to realise is that Palestinians have already lived for over half a century with outcome two. They have nothing to lose, they're already there. Threatening them with a possible outcome two is pointless, since they already live it, day in, day out.

Back to top

IP Logged

abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages Reply #95 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 10:57pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 8:14pm: fought with no land in 1945 At least you are now coming to admit you are a squatter.
Back to top	IP Logged

perceptions_now

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11694
Perth WA
Gender: male

Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages
Reply #96 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 11:39pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 8:14pm:

I have said here before a few months previous that I believe that Israel has been just and fair for what is proposed.
I will not vote in this coming election but I think now with more younger generations and less who fought with no land in 1945 times that we make better progress.

People like me and my generation. Young overseas educated Israeli with wish to live in peace.
It is us that can deliver it.

Me I would be happy to work with moderate Palestinians to achieve two state solution.
Abbas and his Fatah was good option.
Hamas no. I will never see Israel work with terrorists.

So I think we work to agreements. For me on our side I would insist,
1) 2 states with West Bank and Gaza
2) Golan stay Israeli
3) Jerusalem must not be shared. It is 100% Israeli.
4) keep ID card system but allow Palestinians to cross Israel.
5) no more settlements in Judea and Samaria. Just existing ones to stay.
6) work with Fatah but insist the Palestinians denounce Hamas and Hizbollah.

I think the young generation is the key.
But I do go home knowledge that so many Aussies support us.
I will be sad to leave Australia.

The specifics of any lasting arrangements in the region must come from the active participants, but those arrangements will also necessarily involve proposals, which at first sight may seem to go too far, by both sides!

This dilemma, will no doubt, require the clearing of stumbling blocks along the way, some of which have been created by the respective antagonists, whilst some of those stumbling blocks were created by others in the international community.

As I have already said, I hope that the right choices are made, by both sides of this dilemma and that outcomes are found that both party's can live with, instead of die for!

On a personal note, I wish you well for your future, on leaving Australia.

I also hope that is the case for your family & all other families in the region and that a way past the Gordian Knot is found!

Back to top

IP Logged

perceptions_now

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11694
Perth WA
Gender: male

Re: Demolition of 8 West Bank villages
Reply #97 - Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 11:49pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 10:56pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 7:52pm:

I understand there are great difficulties involved, in moving forward, particularly for those party's most closely involved.

However, the two essential choices remain and if both party's can not take that first & subsequent steps, then outcome two will eventually take place and everyone will lose!

I think what you're neglecting to realise is that Palestinians have already lived for over half a century with outcome two. They have nothing to lose, they're already there. Threatening them with a possible outcome two is pointless, since they already live it, day in, day out.

I understand that there are some intractable dilemma's, but trust me, under outcome two there is still a great deal to be lost, by both sides.

As I have already said, the specifics of any lasting arrangements in the region must come from the active participants, but those arrangements will also necessarily involve proposals, which at first sight may seem to go too far, by both sides!

This dilemma, will no doubt, require the clearing of stumbling blocks along the way, some of which have been created by the respective antagonists, whilst some of those stumbling blocks were created by others in the international community.

As I have already said, I hope that the right choices are made, by both sides of this dilemma and I hope that a way past this Gordian Knot can be found!

Back to top

IP Logged