Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26510 Australia	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #195 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 4:47am What does it matter. There have been mutations and changes along the way.There was no divine plan about it. SOB
Back to top	Whaaaaaah! I'm a Moron! - edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #196 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 6:39am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 4:47am:

What does it matter. There have been mutations and changes along the way.There was no divine plan about it.

SOB

Unless you define the processes of nature as being a divine plan. It's a pretty incredible thing how the human brain developed, even though some posters tend to have difficulty seeing in shades of grey.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #197 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:10pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 9:53pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:48pm:

muso wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Well evolutionary paths are generally determined by environmental constraints.

It might just be a case of being in the right place at the right time. The cranial capacity of homo sapiens increased 2.5 fold during the course of the glaciations, which started about 2.5 million years.

It was a period where considerable ingenuity was required to find food and survive, so some have suggested that the most intelligent were most able to survive. Another suggestion was that the more intelligent males were able to keep females amused during the long winters.

Here is another article that suggests that it was all about the inability of human beings to produce Vitamin C internally.

http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/About_Dr_Matthias_Rath/publica...

Whatever actually caused the increase in intelligence, it was likely due to environmental constraints of one type or another.

In other words, you have no idea why we are so different from apes.

Out of those 4 million years we spent 3.95 million years in the same environment as the apes - and giraffes, lions, rhinos, elephants zebras.
We have writing. They don't.
Why?

What happened?

We are virtually identical to other apes such as bonobos and chimpanzees.

Please don't mistake your ignorance as a basis for argument.

But none of them has ever come even close to developing a language, or making fire or building anything, let alone having a song on the Top 100 list.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sir Spot of Borg

Gold Member

Offline

WE ARE BORG

Posts: 26510
Australia

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #198 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:21pm

Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:10pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 9:53pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:48pm:

muso wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Well evolutionary paths are generally determined by environmental constraints.

It might just be a case of being in the right place at the right time. The cranial capacity of homo sapiens increased 2.5 fold during the course of the glaciations, which started about 2.5 million years.

It was a period where considerable ingenuity was required to find food and survive, so some have suggested that the most intelligent were most able to survive. Another suggestion was that the more intelligent males were able to keep females amused during the long winters.

Here is another article that suggests that it was all about the inability of human beings to produce Vitamin C internally.

http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/About_Dr_Matthias_Rath/publica...

Whatever actually caused the increase in intelligence, it was likely due to environmental constraints of one type or another.

In other words, you have no idea why we are so different from apes.

Out of those 4 million years we spent 3.95 million years in the same environment as the apes - and giraffes, lions, rhinos, elephants zebras.
We have writing. They don't.
Why?

What happened?

We are virtually identical to other apes such as bonobos and chimpanzees.

Please don't mistake your ignorance as a basis for argument.

But none of them has ever come even close to developing a language, or making fire or building anything, let alone having a song on the Top 100 list.

So?

SOB

Back to top

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #199 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:22pm

muso wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 9:17pm:

Same environment? Well no - for one thing, homo ergaster left Africa for a more temperate climate. So the ancestors of modern man left the other hominids in Africa and were later caught up in a series of glaciations. During the transition from homo ergaster to homo erectus to archaic homo sapiens, average cranial capacities increased.

Oh really??

I may be mistaken - I am not a boffin, after all - but I recall a nature documentary (Attenborough?) where they said that there are humans in Africa whose ancestors never left Africa. There are apparently millions and millions of them - very black skin, black curly hair, flat nose. They could speak to each other, had huts, fire and chiefs and kingdoms and some of them even learned English. It was unbelievable. Has anyone else heard about such people or am I misremembering something?

Or was it a hoax? I am suspecting a hoax, from what you are saying about brains developing in cold climates and glaciation and so forth.

Back to top

IP Logged

Postmodern Trendoid III

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 10266
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #200 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 2:28pm

I think the important question in the evolutionary process is what was it 'inside' man that gave him the ability to evolve? I am inclined to think of his heightened ability for self-reflectivity which allows for behaviour and the environment to be contemplated and then modified. But this just takes the question further back, why did man develop self-reflectivity?

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #201 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:32pm

Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

muso wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 9:17pm:

Same environment? Well no - for one thing, homo ergaster left Africa for a more temperate climate. So the ancestors of modern man left the other hominids in Africa and were later caught up in a series of glaciations. During the transition from homo ergaster to homo erectus to archaic homo sapiens, average cranial capacities increased.

Oh really??

I may be mistaken - I am not a boffin, after all - but I recall a nature documentary (Attenborough?) where they said that there are humans in Africa whose ancestors never left Africa. There are apparently millions and millions of them - very black skin, black curly hair, flat nose. They could speak to each other, had huts, fire and chiefs and kingdoms and some of them even learned English. It was unbelievable. Has anyone else heard about such people or am I misremembering something?

Or was it a hoax? I am suspecting a hoax, from what you are saying about brains developing in cold climates and glaciation and so forth.

First of all, do you really think that Africans developed in isolation? We are , after all the same species. Do you think somehow that over such a vast period there were groups which were in complete isolation?

I've posted this link before, but here is the story of the journey of mankind based on DNA evidence:

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:41pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

...

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #202 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:39pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 2:28pm:

I think the important question in the evolutionary process is what was it 'inside' man that gave him the ability to evolve? I am inclined to think of his heightened ability for self-reflectivity which allows for behaviour and the environment to be contemplated and then modified. But this just takes the question further back, why did man develop self-reflectivity?

No 'ability' required - just that our brains evolved in complexity, as opposed to our skin growing harder or our teeth growing longer. But for all our brains complexity, it still only compels us to do the same things that a mouses or a dogs brain does, albeit in a more convoluted fashion.

Back to top

In the fullness of time...

IP Logged

Sir Spot of Borg

Gold Member

Offline

WE ARE BORG

Posts: 26510
Australia

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #203 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:41pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 2:28pm:

I think the important question in the evolutionary process is what was it 'inside' man that gave him the ability to evolve? I am inclined to think of his heightened ability for self-reflectivity which allows for behaviour and the environment to be contemplated and then modified. But this just takes the question further back, why did man develop self-reflectivity?

You still dont get it. Evolution wasnt a conscious thing. There was nothing "inside" that caused it either.

SOB

Back to top

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #204 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:59pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 12:15pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 12:03pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 11:32am:

Soren wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:54pm:

If we evolved in parallel with apes, how come we are so incredibly different from them, even as we share most our our DNA?

It is thought the divergence happened around 4-6 million years ago. That's a long time.

As for the differences, I'm not a geneticist however there seems to be a fair amount of similarity to me.

Yes, that's a very long time - yet apes have changed very little, compared to the enormous change in humans.

Why was it advantageous for us to shed our fur, develop speech, dexterity and to think in abstract terms, invent theories about the world - but not for apes?

Your post makes no sense. Human are apes.

Apes have developed speech, dexterity and to think in abstract terms, invent theories about the world. Specifically - the species of ape known as Homo sapiens.

Other apes have evolved in different directions.

Don't forget that until comparatively recently, there were other species of the genus homo which also exhibited intelligent behaviour, including Homo Neanderthalis, which had an even greater cranial capacity to that of homo sapiens, and Denisovans, both of which interbred with homo sapiens.

So homo sapiens was not the only hominid to develop intelligence.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 5^th, 2012 at 6:14pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Postmodern Trendoid III

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 10266
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #205 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 7:02pm

... wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:39pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 2:28pm:

I think the important question in the evolutionary process is what was it 'inside' man that gave him the ability to evolve? I am inclined to think of his heightened ability for self-reflectivity which allows for behaviour and the environment to be contemplated and then modified. But this just takes the question further back, why did man develop self-reflectivity?

No 'ability' required - just that our brains evolved in complexity, as opposed to our skin growing harder or our teeth growing longer. But for all our brains complexity, it still only compels us to do the same things that a mouses or a dogs brain does, albeit in a more convoluted fashion.

I agree that we share a lot with the mouse and dog, even reflective consciousness. But man's reflective consciousness is extremely acute compared to them. Hence why he has the superiority over them in modifying his behaviour and the environment. An interesting question then becomes why did man develop a self-reflective consciousness and why does it seem to have the capacity to enlarge further, but the animal's remained stagnant. We could say he developed it in order to survive. Environmental conditions can, obviously, trigger a heightened self-reflectivity to emerge when forced to survive. But there must have been something already inside man to be triggered to give birth to a deeper reflectivity, otherwise we fall into the illogical argument of the postmodernists who claim everything is a 'social construction.' Meaning, that all is induced from without, and the within is just an empty vessel.

Back to top

IP Logged

...

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #206 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 7:15pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 7:02pm:

But there must have been something already inside man to be triggered to give birth to a deeper reflectivity

The way I look at it is that our complex brains just act as magnifier for what is already within our reptile brain. The base trait might be barely perceptible within other creatures but when magnified by several orders of complexity through our brains, it becomes significant. And once significant, it becomes part of a feedback loop with society or environmental factors, making it continue to grow in some. It pays to be (or appear) all deep and meaningful at a liberal arts campus, but not so much at the muscle gym.

Back to top

In the fullness of time...

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21819
A cat with a view

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #207 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 7:36pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 7:02pm:

... wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:39pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 2:28pm:

I think the important question in the evolutionary process is what was it 'inside' man that gave him the ability to evolve? I am inclined to think of his heightened ability for self-reflectivity which allows for behaviour and the environment to be contemplated and then modified. But this just takes the question further back, why did man develop self-reflectivity?

No 'ability' required - just that our brains evolved in complexity, as opposed to our skin growing harder or our teeth growing longer. But for all our brains complexity, it still only compels us to do the same things that a mouses or a dogs brain does, albeit in a more convoluted fashion.

I agree that we share a lot with the mouse and dog, even reflective consciousness.

But man's reflective consciousness is extremely acute compared to them. Hence why he has the superiority over them in modifying his behaviour and the environment. An interesting question then becomes why did man develop a self-reflective consciousness and why does it seem to have the capacity to enlarge further, but the animal's remained stagnant.

We could say he developed it in order to survive. Environmental conditions can, obviously, trigger a heightened self-reflectivity to emerge when forced to survive.

But there must have been something already inside man to be triggered to give birth to a deeper reflectivity,

otherwise we fall into the illogical argument of the postmodernists who claim everything is a 'social construction.' Meaning, that all is induced from without, and the within is just an empty vessel.

If, if, the evolutionary process were a valid hypothesis, then modern man [by whatever 'genus' you would like to describe him] would have to be a total evolutionary 'freak of nature'.
[......in every sense of that phrase.]

In intelligence in intellect, man is [we are] totally out of place, within the natural order that we find ourselves in.

Man's seemingly unique intellect sets him apart from every other creature on the planet, imo.

Man;
We have it in us [and within each one of us!], to be both highly intelligent, AND, to be highly irrational creatures.

And that, is the truth.

Dictionary;
intellect = =
1 the faculty of reasoning and understanding objectively. one’s mental powers.
2 a clever person.

+++

Job 7:17
What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?

Psalms 8:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Psalms 144:3
LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him!
4 Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Emma

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 9853
OZ
Gender: female

Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #208 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 8:55pm

GROAN!!

Yadda, I understand you live in a religious world, ...but I don't, and nor do I suspect many others on this forum.

As this thread is ..- ATHEISM,

I personally would really appreciate it if you stopped dragging religion, with attendant 'quotes' , into discussions on this thread.

As ever, any subject you contribute to has you , rabbiting on.... it's really getting tired, you know.?

Yawn..... Huh

Back to top

live every day

IP Logged

Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #209 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 8:56pm that goes for MM and Soren ... as well.
Back to top	live every day IP Logged