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Evidence of Evolution being a hoax (Read 78083 times)
Emma
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #435 - Nov 21st, 2012 at 8:46pm
 
er Soren.... I think you finally have an inkling of what Muso is saying..  at last. Roll Eyes
Human language is not just complex bird song.



Language , is not by definition restricted to words,  ..... the human voice box enables us to vocally express ourselves so,  ..  and yet there is no doubt that language consists of much more.

You really are getting boring  (yawn).
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Emma
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #436 - Nov 21st, 2012 at 9:03pm
 
not that I necessarily agree with everything Muso says,  but I know  Wink Smiley I definitely don't agree with YOU.

This talk of evolution reminds me a a couple of advertising takes for a doco on SBS....  I think my jaw dropped in amazement,  and I might add, I didn't watch it.

There was the female 'scientist',  who , in awed tones, asked...  "Could it be that Humans are still evolving..?"  (or some such)....   

I burst out laughing the first time, .. and was somewhat bemused the second. ?? Is this for real??

Then I thought about it....

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Huh Huh Cool Cool Smiley

You see,  for people who believe Man is created in God's image, we must represent the pinnacle of evolution,...   Grin... so really there is no room for proper consideration of evolutionary theory, as this puts us outside of the protection of faith and leaves us to the mercy of nature !!, and its ferocious selection process..

..which means that religious types, and the like,  believe we live in some stasis, God-like but mortal, ever replicating, and able to go on with our wars indefinitely..

Roll Eyes


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Soren
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #437 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 11:40am
 
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2012 at 10:23pm:
  The brain is to intelligence as the canvas is to a masterpiece.



I don't want to discount the rest of your long post but this ideation strikes me as the pointg where we either converge or diverge.

The brain is the canvas AND the paint AND the brushes and all the other material paraphernalia of a painting. Even the hand - or foot or mouth or trunk -that holds the paint.  But none of these will assemble themselves into a masterpiece without the master - the self-directing, creative artist.

You can give all the materials necessary for painting into the hands of an ape or the trunk of an elephant and no masterpiece will emerge, no matter how many apes or elephants or years we are talking about.

A 'masterpiece' is not a material thing but a matter of apperception, appreciation, comprehension. While a material brain is a necessary condition, it is not sufficient for these essentially non-material events.

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #438 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 5:03pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 11:40am:
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2012 at 10:23pm:
  The brain is to intelligence as the canvas is to a masterpiece.



I don't want to discount the rest of your long post but this ideation strikes me as the pointg where we either converge or diverge.

The brain is the canvas AND the paint AND the brushes and all the other material paraphernalia of a painting. Even the hand - or foot or mouth or trunk -that holds the paint.  But none of these will assemble themselves into a masterpiece without the master - the self-directing, creative artist.

You can give all the materials necessary for painting into the hands of an ape or the trunk of an elephant and no masterpiece will emerge, no matter how many apes or elephants or years we are talking about.

A 'masterpiece' is not a material thing but a matter of apperception, appreciation, comprehension. While a material brain is a necessary condition, it is not sufficient for these essentially non-material events.



If you're saying that the self-directing, creative artist is the brain owner, then we agree. Of course the artist needs an environment in which to develop. Can you see the cyclic aspect that I'm talking about?

It's a recurring theme in humanity. Painting a masterpiece builds confidence. Painting a masterpiece is the main contributing factor in painting many masterpieces. We inspire ourselves. Others can provide the raw material for that inspiration, but any motivation and inspiration come from our individual selves - our immanent muses if you like.   

The environment helps us to develop, but in some respects, we have the cognitive ability to create our own environments, using the definition of environment as anything that can influence you.
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #439 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 5:37pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 11:40am:
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2012 at 10:23pm:
  The brain is to intelligence as the canvas is to a masterpiece.



I don't want to discount the rest of your long post but this ideation strikes me as the pointg where we either converge or diverge.

The brain is the canvas AND the paint AND the brushes and all the other material paraphernalia of a painting. Even the hand - or foot or mouth or trunk -that holds the paint.  But none of these will assemble themselves into a masterpiece without the master - the self-directing, creative artist.

You can give all the materials necessary for painting into the hands of an ape or the trunk of an elephant and no masterpiece will emerge, no matter how many apes or elephants or years we are talking about.

A 'masterpiece' is not a material thing but a matter of apperception, appreciation, comprehension. While a material brain is a necessary condition, it is not sufficient for these essentially non-material events.


disagree that the brain is a canvas (being the object) in a process. all the art would be a consequence of the brains activity.
I have seen both ape and elephant paintings and I almost wept at the beauty.. so another disagree there..
in your denouement you fail to say things which I was looking for, sort of..
btw, can I have my ration pack back now?
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Soren
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #440 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 7:02pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 5:03pm:
Soren wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 11:40am:
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2012 at 10:23pm:
  The brain is to intelligence as the canvas is to a masterpiece.



I don't want to discount the rest of your long post but this ideation strikes me as the pointg where we either converge or diverge.

The brain is the canvas AND the paint AND the brushes and all the other material paraphernalia of a painting. Even the hand - or foot or mouth or trunk -that holds the paint.  But none of these will assemble themselves into a masterpiece without the master - the self-directing, creative artist.

You can give all the materials necessary for painting into the hands of an ape or the trunk of an elephant and no masterpiece will emerge, no matter how many apes or elephants or years we are talking about.

A 'masterpiece' is not a material thing but a matter of apperception, appreciation, comprehension. While a material brain is a necessary condition, it is not sufficient for these essentially non-material events.



If you're saying that the self-directing, creative artist is the brain owner, then we agree. Of course the artist needs an environment in which to develop. Can you see the cyclic aspect that I'm talking about?

It's a recurring theme in humanity. Painting a masterpiece builds confidence. Painting a masterpiece is the main contributing factor in painting many masterpieces. We inspire ourselves. Others can provide the raw material for that inspiration, but any motivation and inspiration come from our individual selves - our immanent muses if you like.   

The environment helps us to develop, but in some respects, we have the cognitive ability to create our own environments, using the definition of environment as anything that can influence you.


Two things:
The 'artist' is not in the brain. It is not the homunculus. The 'artist' is the non-material aspect, what people have been referring to for ages as the 'soul' ((let's not get bogged down in any particular theological formulation, let's just say that people have always thought of it in some way). If so, the evolutionary process that may apply to our  vegetable and animal aspects halts at the 'artist' aspect'.

I don't think we inspire ourselves. If we did, that would be a circular thing that you are proposing. What I am proposing is that the very thing about our humanity, the 'artist' aspect, is that it is NOT circular, while our vegetable and animal aspects, the stuff of evolution, are circular. Our humanity is teleological, individually as well as collectively.
Inspiration, being struck by a thought, 'it will come to me', love - these are examples of language expressing experiences that are not properly comprehended by the evolutionary imagination. (It is scarcely necessary to say that the theory of evolution itself is a piece of idealism, like every other theory, without exception.)



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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #441 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 7:06pm
 
Emma wrote on Nov 21st, 2012 at 9:03pm:
I definitely don't agree with YOU.



You have no idea how relieved I am.

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Soren
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #442 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 7:08pm
 
Emma wrote on Nov 21st, 2012 at 9:03pm:
You see,  for people who believe Man is created in God's image, we must represent the pinnacle of evolution,...   Grin... so really there is no room for proper consideration of evolutionary theory, as this puts us outside of the protection of faith and leaves us to the mercy of nature !!, and its ferocious selection process..

..which means that religious types, and the like,  believe we live in some stasis, God-like but mortal, ever replicating, and able to go on with our wars indefinitely..

Roll Eyes





I pray that this makes sense to you.
Because it doesn't to me.


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Soren
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #443 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 7:09pm
 
Emma wrote on Nov 21st, 2012 at 8:46pm:
er Soren.... I think you finally have an inkling of what Muso is saying..  at last. Roll Eyes
Human language is not just complex bird song.



Language , is not by definition restricted to words,  ..... the human voice box enables us to vocally express ourselves so,  ..  and yet there is no doubt that language consists of much more.

You really are getting boring  (yawn).


I seem to be stimulating you.

Tongue
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #444 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 7:40pm
 
You're straying from the analogy that I set up - that of the canvas and the artist / the brain and intelligence.

I used the word artist in an analogous fashion.

- but let's get into the second part of your argument. I'm not sure in what context you use the term homunculus, as I've mainly heard the term being accompanied by sniggers, but I take it that you're really talking about a kind of duality or perhaps poly-ality (?) .  I know what you mean by the terms "mind" and "soul", and I even used the term "muse". I regard these as intrinsic effects that result from basic brain physiology, and it can be shown that the brain works in a kind of cyclic feedback process. Regardless of the fact that they are consequences of mental activity, they are very real in our perception.

Perhaps everything you say about mind or soul or muses (or gods) may be perfectly valid. The mental landscape is potentially an incredibly complex place, in the context of those 100 billion neurons.

It's easy to see that developing as we do with two brains in one, we can easily acquire a sense of duality.   The brain stem and hypothalamus are the seat of instinct, feelings, love, appetite,  sex, sensory inputs and basic  life support, whereas the cerebral cortex is involved in thinking and rational thought.

The sensory link between the hypothalamus and the reticular activating system of the cerebral cortex is severely baud limited, and this is responsible for our delayed reaction time compared to that of many animals, and for most routine tasks we have a tendency to use our subconscious (at least 90% of the time)
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Emma
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #445 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 8:24pm
 
all good Muso...

but Soren seems subject to selective stupidity.. Cheesy

so 'sup to you

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #446 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 9:05pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 7:40pm:
You're straying from the analogy that I set up - that of the canvas and the artist / the brain and intelligence.

I used the word artist in an analogous fashion.

- but let's get into the second part of your argument. I'm not sure in what context you use the term homunculus, as I've mainly heard the term being accompanied by sniggers, but I take it that you're really talking about a kind of duality or perhaps poly-ality (?) .  I know what you mean by the terms "mind" and "soul", and I even used the term "muse". I regard these as intrinsic effects that result from basic brain physiology, and it can be shown that the brain works in a kind of cyclic feedback process. Regardless of the fact that they are consequences of mental activity, they are very real in our perception.

Perhaps everything you say about mind or soul or muses (or gods) may be perfectly valid. The mental landscape is potentially an incredibly complex place, in the context of those 100 billion neurons.

It's easy to see that developing as we do with two brains in one, we can easily acquire a sense of duality.   The brain stem and hypothalamus are the seat of instinct, feelings, love, appetite,  sex, sensory inputs and basic  life support, whereas the cerebral cortex is involved in thinking and rational thought.

The sensory link between the hypothalamus and the reticular activating system of the cerebral cortex is severely baud limited, and this is responsible for our delayed reaction time compared to that of many animals, and for most routine tasks we have a tendency to use our subconscious (at least 90% of the time)



Well...

I don't see how it is possible for you to think that "feelings, love, appetite,  sex, sensory inputs" are in any way autonomous from language, abstraction, memory, 'collective soul'.

My sense - correct me if I am wrong - is that 'data' gets in your way of thinking straight.

I remind you that human experience is not about the reported data about human experience but about the human experience.

What science is able to capture is not what life actually lives. There is a residue that is inaccesible to science (quantifying, datafying), now and always.

What one lives and what one reports as data are not the same. The cat of science will never catch the mouse of lived experience because by definition the cat is schematic while the mouse is unique, even if there is such a thing as 'mice'.


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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #447 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 10:02pm
 
I don't think the cat of science is really interested in that particular mouse.

I agree with just about everything you said, with the addition that the context of the neuroscience is just a useful extra dimension in our understanding.

I understand that a picture of a pipe is not a pipe, but a mental picture of something does offer us an extra dimension of understanding.  It shouldn't be dismissed  just because it doesn't convey that sense of corrosive smoke permeating your lungs when you look at it.

Quote:
I don't see how it is possible for you to think that "feelings, love, appetite,  sex, sensory inputs" are in any way autonomous from language, abstraction, memory, 'collective soul'.


They are not autonomous. I didn't say that. The two brains are connected.  The connection is baud limited to approximately 52,000 "bits" (neuron firings) per second. (MRI can give us that information.)

You're right in saying that feelings involve all parts of the brain.  It's interesting that the sense of smell is particularly evocative when it comes to memory.   Memory of smells usually occupies a part of the brain adjacent to the "olfactory bulb". I remember crushing the leaves of some Mexican mint some years back and I was immediately transported back to being 3 years old in my father's greenhouse- something that I had completely forgotten about.  The scent of the plant  was a strong aide memoire.  What I described would have involved several different parts of the brain, culminating in the secretion of a group of neurochemicals in the hypothalamus.
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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #448 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 10:10pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 9:47pm:
I don't think the cat of science is really interested in that particular mouse.

I agree with just about everything you said, with the addition that the context of the neuroscience is just a useful extra dimension in our understanding.

I understand that a picture of a pipe is not a pipe, but a mental picture of something does offer us an extra dimension of understanding.  It shouldn't be dismissed  just because it doesn't convey that sense of corrosive smoke permeating your lungs when you look at it.



Neuroscience, all science,  is very, very important.  I am saying, however, that all science tends to overreach and what is worse, tend to resist correctives against such overreach.

There is no science of the mind, even as there is neuroscience and brain science.  The mind and the brain are not about the same thing. The way to deal with the mind is through literature, art, conversation, interpersonal relationships, 'this person, this situation' kind of stuff  - all unquantifiable, living, elusive yet essential stuff.







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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #449 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 10:11pm
 
Emma wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 8:24pm:
all good Muso...

but Soren seems subject to selective stupidity.. Cheesy

so 'sup to you



As distinct from your blanket stupidity?

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