Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #450 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 2:28am

true to form eh Soren??

'sok, I am not offended. You are reduced to insults yet again.

anyway

as Muso has acknowledged, you both share common ground...

But you are not on the same path. You could both argue, in parallel, indefinitely without actually reaching a conclusion. In spite of your common ground, you are really never going to reach that crucial agreement , because your approaches are very different .

Muso sees no harm in looking at human behaviour from an objective, disinterested position.

You, on the other hand, insist that such an approach is wrong, because humans are not to be so assessed....... because Humans have some elusive quality that defies such interpretation.
Soren...you are a romantic.!!

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #451 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 7:59am

Emma wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 2:28am:

true to form eh Soren??

'sok, I am not offended. You are reduced to insults yet again.

Really? Who posted this, then, by way of advancing her argument?
Emma wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 8:24pm:

all good Muso...

but Soren seems subject to selective stupidity.. Cheesy

so 'sup to you

You are like SOB - if someone calls you the same thing back at you, you go all 'he's abusing me!!'.

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #452 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 8:13am

Emma wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 2:28am:

You, on the other hand, insist that such an approach is wrong, because humans are not to be so assessed....... because Humans have some elusive quality that defies such interpretation.
Soren...you are a romantic.!!

Now you see, I don't read that. Maybe you just bring out the romantic in him.

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #453 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 8:24am

Soren wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 10:10pm:

muso wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 9:47pm:

I don't think the cat of science is really interested in that particular mouse.

I agree with just about everything you said, with the addition that the context of the neuroscience is just a useful extra dimension in our understanding.

I understand that a picture of a pipe is not a pipe, but a mental picture of something does offer us an extra dimension of understanding. It shouldn't be dismissed just because it doesn't convey that sense of corrosive smoke permeating your lungs when you look at it.

Neuroscience, all science, is very, very important. I am saying, however, that all science tends to overreach and what is worse, tend to resist correctives against such overreach.

There is no science of the mind, even as there is neuroscience and brain science. The mind and the brain are not about the same thing. The way to deal with the mind is through literature, art, conversation, interpersonal relationships, 'this person, this situation' kind of stuff - all unquantifiable, living, elusive yet essential stuff.

I actually know of some instances where science tends to overreach, such as psychometrics, and maybe you're right about some aspects of social evolution too, but it doesn't hurt to postulate, even if your postulate involves standing tip toe on a box on top of a ladder. Eventually the postulate might fall in a heap, or it might not, and even if it does fall in a heap, we might still learn things along the way. Researchers particularly tend to over-reach to the point of cognitive acrobatics, notably in the fields of Cosmology and Quantum Physics. As long as peer researchers are continuously jiggling the ladder, it doesn't really matter.

We probably need a bit more ladder jiggling in the field of human resources. Their latest fads never cease to amuse me.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #454 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 10:15am

This just in. You too will find it interesting.

"More commonly, however, changes in scientific facts reflect the way that science is done. Mr. Arbesman describes the "Decline Effect"—the tendency of an original scientific publication to present results that seem far more compelling than those of later studies. Such a tendency has been documented in the medical literature over the past decade by John Ioannidis, a researcher at Stanford, in areas as diverse as HIV therapy, angioplasty and stroke treatment. The cause of the decline may well be a potent combination of random chance (generating an excessively impressive result) and publication bias (leading positive results to get preferentially published).

If shaky claims enter the realm of science too quickly, firmer ones often meet resistance. As Mr. Arbesman notes, scientists struggle to let go of long-held beliefs, something that Daniel Kahneman has described as "theory-induced blindness." Had the Austrian medical community in the 1840s accepted the controversial conclusions of Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis that physicians were responsible for the spread of childbed fever—and heeded his hand-washing recommendations—a devastating outbreak of the disease might have been averted.

Science, Mr. Arbesman observes, is a "terribly human endeavor." Knowledge grows but carries with it uncertainty and error; today's scientific doctrine may become tomorrow's cautionary tale."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324894104578113590368047244.html

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #455 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 11:31am

Early in this thread, I quoted a Nobel laureate who spoke about the jungle that is science. I'll try to find it, because it's relevant to this part of the discussion. Here it is:
Quote:

There is no philosophical high-road in science, with epistemological signposts. No, we are in a jungle and find our way by trial and error, building our roads behind us as we proceed. We do not find sign-posts at cross-roads, but our own scouts erect them, to help the rest.

Max Born (1882-1970), Nobel Prize-winning physicist, quoted in Gerald Holton's Thematic Origins of Scientific Thought

Also have a look at this table. It explains the distinction between Science and other kinds of knowledge:

http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/1122science3.html#SCIVSOTHER

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« Last Edit: Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 12:02pm by muso »

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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #456 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 9:01pm

Soren wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 7:59am:

Emma wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 2:28am:

true to form eh Soren??

'sok, I am not offended. You are reduced to insults yet again.

Really? Who posted this, then, by way of advancing her argument?
Emma wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 8:24pm:

all good Muso...

but Soren seems subject to selective stupidity.. Cheesy

so 'sup to you

You are like SOB - if someone calls you the same thing back at you, you go all 'he's abusing me!!'.

No I'm not arguing with you.... like I said earlier, I'm not interested in this discussion particularly... well not any longer. Roll Eyes

Altho some interesting things have come to light..neh?

Now now be honest.... the key word here is 'selective', whereas your response was much more inclusive.!!

Your response ....? "As distinct from your blanket stupidity?"

tut tut..

( I hope you can understand what I have written..! Roll Eyes

)

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #457 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 9:53pm

Emma wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 9:01pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 7:59am:

Emma wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 2:28am:

true to form eh Soren??

'sok, I am not offended. You are reduced to insults yet again.

Really? Who posted this, then, by way of advancing her argument?
Emma wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 8:24pm:

all good Muso...

but Soren seems subject to selective stupidity.. Cheesy

so 'sup to you

You are like SOB - if someone calls you the same thing back at you, you go all 'he's abusing me!!'.

No I'm not arguing with you.... like I said earlier, I'm not interested in this discussion particularly... well not any longer. Roll Eyes

Altho some interesting things have come to light..neh?

Now now be honest.... the key word here is 'selective', whereas your response was much more inclusive.!!

Your response ....? "As distinct from your blanket stupidity?"

tut tut..

( I hope you can understand what I have written..! Roll Eyes

)

Yeah, understand every word. It's the sentences that don't make sense to me. Too much of a - what's the word? - self-referential stream of consciousness.

Tip: when you talk to others you have to remember that you are not talking to self, Bridget.

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #458 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 10:16pm ah yes - fair cop, soren I do tend to expect others to understand my stream.. quite unreasonably no doubt. But you know how it is.... get on a roll, and go where it takes you.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #459 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 11:36pm Is that like roll your own?
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #460 - Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 11:54pm euphemistically & exuberantly..
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #461 - Nov 24^th, 2012 at 4:01am

Soren wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 7:59am:

Emma wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 2:28am:

true to form eh Soren??

'sok, I am not offended. You are reduced to insults yet again.

Really? Who posted this, then, by way of advancing her argument?
Emma wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 8:24pm:

all good Muso...

but Soren seems subject to selective stupidity.. Cheesy

so 'sup to you

You are like SOB - if someone calls you the same thing back at you, you go all 'he's abusing me!!'.

Liar. you know full well its the other way around.

SOB

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Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #462 - Nov 24^th, 2012 at 10:07am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 24^th, 2012 at 4:01am:

Soren wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 7:59am:

Emma wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 2:28am:

true to form eh Soren??

'sok, I am not offended. You are reduced to insults yet again.

Really? Who posted this, then, by way of advancing her argument?
Emma wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 8:24pm:

all good Muso...

but Soren seems subject to selective stupidity.. Cheesy

so 'sup to you

You are like SOB - if someone calls you the same thing back at you, you go all 'he's abusing me!!'.

Liar. you know full well its the other way around.

SOB

Oh? You mean YOU are like Emma Peel?

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gold_medal

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #463 - Nov 24^th, 2012 at 11:54am

muso wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 8:24am:

Soren wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 10:10pm:

muso wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 9:47pm:

I don't think the cat of science is really interested in that particular mouse.

I agree with just about everything you said, with the addition that the context of the neuroscience is just a useful extra dimension in our understanding.

I understand that a picture of a pipe is not a pipe, but a mental picture of something does offer us an extra dimension of understanding. It shouldn't be dismissed just because it doesn't convey that sense of corrosive smoke permeating your lungs when you look at it.

Neuroscience, all science, is very, very important. I am saying, however, that all science tends to overreach and what is worse, tend to resist correctives against such overreach.

There is no science of the mind, even as there is neuroscience and brain science. The mind and the brain are not about the same thing. The way to deal with the mind is through literature, art, conversation, interpersonal relationships, 'this person, this situation' kind of stuff - all unquantifiable, living, elusive yet essential stuff.

I actually know of some instances where science tends to overreach, such as psychometrics, and maybe you're right about some aspects of social evolution too, but it doesn't hurt to postulate, even if your postulate involves standing tip toe on a box on top of a ladder. Eventually the postulate might fall in a heap, or it might not, and even if it does fall in a heap, we might still learn things along the way. Researchers particularly tend to over-reach to the point of cognitive acrobatics, notably in the fields of Cosmology and Quantum Physics. As long as peer researchers are continuously jiggling the ladder, it doesn't really matter.

We probably need a bit more ladder jiggling in the field of human resources. Their latest fads never cease to amuse me.

Ive never heard it described in such a way and it is fabulous. you are right in that bleeding-edge researchers are tip-toe on top of a ladder while their peers are shaking it. The trouble is there are the likes of lastnail and SOB and others who would rather just push the ladder over.

great analogy!

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #464 - Nov 24^th, 2012 at 12:07pm

gold_medal wrote on Nov 24^th, 2012 at 11:54am:

muso wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2012 at 8:24am:

Soren wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 10:10pm:

muso wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 9:47pm:

I don't think the cat of science is really interested in that particular mouse.

I agree with just about everything you said, with the addition that the context of the neuroscience is just a useful extra dimension in our understanding.

I understand that a picture of a pipe is not a pipe, but a mental picture of something does offer us an extra dimension of understanding. It shouldn't be dismissed just because it doesn't convey that sense of corrosive smoke permeating your lungs when you look at it.

Neuroscience, all science, is very, very important. I am saying, however, that all science tends to overreach and what is worse, tend to resist correctives against such overreach.

There is no science of the mind, even as there is neuroscience and brain science. The mind and the brain are not about the same thing. The way to deal with the mind is through literature, art, conversation, interpersonal relationships, 'this person, this situation' kind of stuff - all unquantifiable, living, elusive yet essential stuff.

I actually know of some instances where science tends to overreach, such as psychometrics, and maybe you're right about some aspects of social evolution too, but it doesn't hurt to postulate, even if your postulate involves standing tip toe on a box on top of a ladder. Eventually the postulate might fall in a heap, or it might not, and even if it does fall in a heap, we might still learn things along the way. Researchers particularly tend to over-reach to the point of cognitive acrobatics, notably in the fields of Cosmology and Quantum Physics. As long as peer researchers are continuously jiggling the ladder, it doesn't really matter.

We probably need a bit more ladder jiggling in the field of human resources. Their latest fads never cease to amuse me.

Ive never heard it described in such a way and it is fabulous. you are right in that bleeding-edge researchers are tip-toe on top of a ladder while their peers are shaking it. The trouble is there are the likes of lastnail and SOB and others who would rather just push the ladder over.

great analogy!

So what happened to the dinosaurs ?? Where did they go ??

How come Noah didn't have enough room for all of the dinsoaur species on his boat ?? Boat not big enough Cheesy

LOL

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