Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #90 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 8:44am

... wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 4:25pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 9:14pm:

... wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 1:49pm:

It does get convoluted, that's for sure. Some books that can help get your head around it. I'm not even gonna try to explain what they take several hundred pages to say.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996

http://www.amazon.com/The-Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial/dp/0670031518

I'll give them a read. I've read a bit of Pinker before, so he is already on my reading list.

Stumbled upon a coupla short articles on this;

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwin-eternity/201205/self-interest-god-s-i...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwin-eternity/201107/how-science-can-help-...

Not a bad read.

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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #91 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:27am muso wrote on Oct 30^th, 2012 at 5:50pm: Did anybody Google the Price Equation? Is that a system for the price is right?
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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #92 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 8:06pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 12:50pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 12:33pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 11:59am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 11:58am:

Soren makes a fair point. The natural sciences can only explain, not idealise.

Which is exactly what its not meant to do.
Its like complaining a car can't fly like an aeroplane.

What is idealism then? How do we explain it?

That's subjective isn't it.
Evolution is not.

If evolution is an all-encompassing objective theory of life it should, then, be able to explain idealism.

There is the tension. My point is that we cannot have anything but one form of 'idealism' or another if we grasp that our materialism, or atheism or what have you are all sets of ideas. We have no theory, objective or otherwise, that is not a set of ideas.

So you cannot be an evolutionist, for example, until the idea hits you.

You can't even be tall until you are able to form the idea of 'tall'. No brown fox looks at a giraffe and thinks it 'tall'.

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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #93 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 8:17pm

muso wrote on Oct 27^th, 2012 at 7:56am:

Quote:

I have heard that you can get bibles with pictures.

"And God will have his way."

Would that part be illustrated?

Which would you like? Jupiter and Io, Jupiter and Thetis, Jupiter with Leda? (The mother of Castor and Pollux)

Jupiter (Deus Pater) God the father, or the Greek version Zeus (Deus = God)

They all have a similar mythological lineage.

Matthew 1:18 (International Standard Version)
Quote:

Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah happened in this way. When his mother Mary was engaged to Joseph, before they lived together she was discovered to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

Oh I like that post lots Muso..

Must read on...

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #94 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 8:21pm

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 7:02pm:

- because as human beings, we have a sense of morality and altruism, which is entirely separate from evolutionary processes.

You are saying (without probably even realising it) that humans have certain attributes (morality, altruism) that are independent from and not subject to evolution.

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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #95 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 8:38pm

no soren duh.. Roll Eyes

Muso is saying the opposite.. in fact.

That evolution is a perfect example of a 'proven' theory, an unassailable explanation...

at the very least it has shown a progression in complexity of life forms,..
and posits the basic origin of species....
including us, and , it is proven, scientifically,
so in fact all questions of morals or ethics, as just irrelevant.

In other words, IMO , .. if ethical behaviour appears, that can only be good for the survival of the specie..us. It IS an imperative , generally speaking...in a SANE society.
Make love not war... Yeah??

See?? Basic 'laws' of nature supercede human-imposed ideas... its just that we think we are the ultimate,... when logically, in every respect, the process of evolution continues.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #96 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 8:52pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 6:40pm:

And why can't i kill and eat your child, .....when i am starving ? [......coz, i am just a hawk swooping on its prey.]

etc.

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 7:02pm:

- because as human beings, we have a sense of morality and altruism, which is entirely separate from evolutionary processes.

Does seem pretty clear and definitive.

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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #97 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:41pm

muso wrote on Oct 28th, 2012 at 7:02pm:

- because as human beings, we have a sense of morality and altruism, which is entirely separate from evolutionary processes.

Soren replies..
Does seem pretty clear and definitive.

not necessarily...

depends on what you think it means ,.... no?

evolutionary processes do not include morality and altruism... get that?? They cannot - they do not co-exist on the same basis

you are confusing timeframes , they are not on the same scale... Roll Eyes

morality and altruism are short-term strategies, unlikely to impact on the general evolution of a species, over time. .

You have to remember, we have been on this earth for a lot longer than religion has, ..and it could be argued they represent a retrogressive factor of human society, but, its got nothing to do with Darwinism, and Evolutionary theory. IMO.

But perhaps?? I don't understand your point???

Don't you argue that humans have nothing to do with global warming,..? or is that some other poster??
Yawn
Whatever

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #98 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:57pm

If you accept evolution then you also accept that your mind and all its contents are also the products of evolution. After all, for an evolutionists, the human mind itself is the product of evolution and nothing else as it is regarded as a brain function, nothing more.

You cannot then say that morality and altruism or anything else you can conceive of in your mind is 'entirely separate from the evolutionary process' as nothing in the mind is separate from the brain and the body for an evolutionist - and the body and the brain are the way they are due to evolution.

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26510 Australia	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #99 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 5:22am Thats the thing with science - you can accept some parts and not others. You can go out and look for proof of the parts you dont accept. Unlike religion where you "have to" accept it all or none apparently. SOB
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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #100 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:06pm

Science is possible only if you have a unified world view. Science, like theology, assumes a coherent, not a random world.
You cannot operate scientifically (or theologically) if you think science (theology) applies to only certain parts of the world. They both assume a solid belief in a knowable, reasonable, coherent world.

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Kytro

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #101 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:37pm

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Science is possible only if you have a unified world view. Science, like theology, assumes a coherent, not a random world.
You cannot operate scientifically (or theologically) if you think science (theology) applies to only certain parts of the world. They both assume a solid belief in a knowable, reasonable, coherent world.

Science is observation based. It does not assume a random world because do not observe things randomly happening (for the most part, anyway).

Science is a method for examining the world, making observations and from them, predictions. Science has has the capability to alter conclusions given new evidence.

Religion does not generally do this.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #102 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 2:10pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:37pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Science is possible only if you have a unified world view. Science, like theology, assumes a coherent, not a random world.
You cannot operate scientifically (or theologically) if you think science (theology) applies to only certain parts of the world. They both assume a solid belief in a knowable, reasonable, coherent world.

Science is observation based. It does not assume a random world because do not observe things randomly happening (for the most part, anyway).

Science is a method for examining the world, making observations and from them, predictions.

Science has has the capability to alter conclusions given new evidence.

Religion does not generally do this.

Yes, mankind without religion, are totally rational, totally 'scientific'.

You can see the evidence of this everyday in the SECULAR, Western, mainstream media;
/sarc off

"Mainstream ISLAM is a peaceful religion, that has been hijacked by a few extremists."

ISLAM - THREE THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OzxiHfWvBGw

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #103 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 5:08pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:37pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Science is possible only if you have a unified world view. Science, like theology, assumes a coherent, not a random world.
You cannot operate scientifically (or theologically) if you think science (theology) applies to only certain parts of the world. They both assume a solid belief in a knowable, reasonable, coherent world.

Science is observation based. It does not assume a random world because do not observe things randomly happening (for the most part, anyway).

Science is a method for examining the world, making observations and from them, predictions. Science has has the capability to alter conclusions given new evidence.

Religion does not generally do this.

Religion is also based on 'well formulated' hypotheses, observations within the parameters of the hypothesis and predictions that reinforce the hypothesis. In this sense it is based on experience as science.
It doesn't have experiments, though, and falsifiability. But nor do other belief system, political or moral.

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #104 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 5:24pm

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:37pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Science is possible only if you have a unified world view. Science, like theology, assumes a coherent, not a random world.
You cannot operate scientifically (or theologically) if you think science (theology) applies to only certain parts of the world. They both assume a solid belief in a knowable, reasonable, coherent world.

Science is observation based. It does not assume a random world because do not observe things randomly happening (for the most part, anyway).

Science is a method for examining the world, making observations and from them, predictions. Science has has the capability to alter conclusions given new evidence.

Religion does not generally do this.

Religion is also based on 'well formulated' hypotheses, observations within the parameters of the hypothesis and predictions that reinforce the hypothesis. In this sense it is based on experience as science.
It doesn't have experiments, though, and falsifiability. But nor do other belief system, political or moral.

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A day without sunshine is like night.

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