Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #120 - Nov 2^nd, 2012 at 4:57pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2012 at 4:07pm:

... wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 7:14pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 7:11pm:

Well usually it is based on ancient texts,

Ahh but what are the ancient texts based on?

Stuff people thought up in ancient times

Back when they were much more in touch with themselves and the natural world. Thank bugger we're so much smarter now eh?

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In the fullness of time...

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #121 - Nov 2^nd, 2012 at 5:58pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:37pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Science is possible only if you have a unified world view. Science, like theology, assumes a coherent, not a random world.
You cannot operate scientifically (or theologically) if you think science (theology) applies to only certain parts of the world. They both assume a solid belief in a knowable, reasonable, coherent world.

Science is observation based. It does not assume a random world because do not observe things randomly happening (for the most part, anyway).

Science is a method for examining the world, making observations and from them, predictions. Science has has the capability to alter conclusions given new evidence.

Religion does not generally do this.

I am not suggesting for a moment that religion makes predictions about the same things the natural sciences do.
What I am suggesting is that science is not a radical but an incremental and relatively slight change from religion, for the reason that it has emerged from the religious mind and not from the a-religious mind.
This should not strike you as news or as something unheard of.
Science has emerged from religion as another way of unifying certain aspects of knowledge (science is by no means the totality of knowledge).

Greek schools of philosophy and medieval universities were the great centres of disputation and discourse and research. The idea that the universe, the natural world is accessible to reason is an idea that stems from a particular religious tradition and is not found in others.

And so on. It is naive or ignorant of the history of ideas to think that science popped up in opposition to religion in the West, or that it could have popped up in any other religious context. In a way it i not possible to understand the history of the development of scientific thought without some knowledge and familiarity with western theology and religious history.

The assumptions that drive science (a unified vision of the world accessible to human reason) are, historically speaking, unique to the western mindset that was formed by Christianity (a Jewish sect) and Greek and Roman philosophy (itself not fragmented into philosophy and theology as in our time).

Science is rooted in religious ideas, if you like paradoxes. (Or even if you don't.)i

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #122 - Nov 2^nd, 2012 at 6:01pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 6:56pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Religion is also based on 'well formulated' hypotheses, observations within the parameters of the hypothesis and predictions that reinforce the hypothesis. In this sense it is based on experience as science.
It doesn't have experiments, though, and falsifiability. But nor do other belief system, political or moral.

And you reckon im stupid?

SOB

Yes.
And I am not alone.

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #123 - Nov 2^nd, 2012 at 10:26pm you don't have that much company either, Soren. I totally disagree with that statement.
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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #124 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 10:04am

Science was stillborn in every other society that didn't have the essential rationalism of the Judeo-Christian theology which holds that the world was created by rational creator and so 'reading' the world (natural science) is a guide to the rational mind of the creator - and conversely reading the Bible is a guide to the world.

Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Boyle, Pascal - all devout Christians for whom there was absolutely no conflict between their religious and scientific views. They in fact defended their scientific discoveries on theological as well as observational grounds.

Even a very basic, introductory book on the history of science will tell you this much.

"The early pioneers and heroes of modern Western science—Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Boyle, and so on—were all serious Christians, if occasionally, as with Newton, Christologically unorthodox. Furthermore, many (Foster 1934, 1935, 1936; Ratzsch 2009) have pointed out that theistic belief and empirical science display a deep concord, fit together neatly. This is in part a result of the doctrines of creation embraced by theistic religions—in particular two aspects of those doctrines. First, there is the thought that God has created the world, and has of course therefore also created human beings. Furthermore, he has created human beings in his own image. Now God, according to theistic belief, is a person: a being who has knowledge, affection (likes and dislikes), and executive will, and who can act on his beliefs in order to achieve his ends. One of the chief features of the divine image in human beings, then, is the ability to form beliefs and to acquire knowledge. As Thomas Aquinas puts it, “Since human beings are said to be in the image of God in virtue of their having a nature that includes an intellect, such a nature is most in the image of God in virtue of being most able to imitate God” (ST Ia q. 93 a. 4). God has therefore created both us and the world, and arranged for the former to know the latter. Thinking of science at the most basic level as the project of acquiring knowledge of ourselves and our world, it is clear, from this perspective, that the doctrine of imago dei underwrites this project. Indeed, the pursuit of science is a clear example of the development and enhancement of the image of God in human beings, both individually and collectively."

Etc, etc, etc
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-science/

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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #125 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:01pm

etc etc blah blab blah bla bah...
Spare us the rhetoric

You suggest all these 'scientists' of old, held to God... don't believe it myself... Roll Eyes

no doubt it was encumbent on them to profess piety, so as not to be burned at the stake.

You seem to forget the great scholars that arose from other peoples, and other religious sects..
can I name them..?? well of course I speak of the great Arab and Persian 'scientists'..among others, but can I name them ?

No ... because our society, still striving to be secular, gives little credit to others, outside the Xtian view.
And I suggest a secular society is what all clever people hope for...

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #126 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:07pm Emma wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:01pm: etc etc blah blab blah bla bah... Spare us the rhetoric Look, if you insist on being militantly stupid and ignorant, I am not going to stand in your way.
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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #127 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:28pm

You really don't believe in evolution do you?/

I mean... even in the context of animals, let alone human beings..?? You think we popped into being a mere few thousand yrs ago, by the hand of an almighty creator, all of the multitudinous forms of life , even now extant, all in one go.!! . So, obviously in that time frame evolution wouldn't have TIME to have any effect.!! Roll Eyes

The whole POINT of evolutionary theory, is that organisms, over long periods of time, change characteristics in order to better assimilate into the environment where they exist, so as to continue to survive, as a species.

That is nothing to do with religious thought. I think YOU are stupid, as is my right, and by evidence shown by your posts as proof of that view.

Perhaps, you might consider the idea that humans have evolved,... and , presumably with the ingrained tradition of the West, these ancient men of wisdom are no longer relevant , in particular, to today.??!! Could you? and of course

That would most definitely encompass the Bible, n'est ce pas??

.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #128 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:39pm

Emma wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:28pm:

You really don't believe in evolution do you?/

I mean... even in the context of animals, let alone human beings..?? You think we popped into being a mere few thousand yrs ago, by the hand of an almighty creator, all of the multitudinous forms of life , even now extant, all in one go.!! . So, obviously in that time frame evolution wouldn't have TIME to have any effect.!! Roll Eyes

The whole POINT of evolutionary theory, is that organisms, over long periods of time, change characteristics in order to better assimilate into the environment where they exist, so as to continue to survive, as a species.

That is nothing to do with religious thought. I think YOU are stupid, as is my right, and by evidence shown by your posts as proof of that view.

Perhaps, you might consider the idea that humans have evolved,... and , presumably with the ingrained tradition of the West, these ancient men of wisdom are no longer relevant , in particular, to today.??!! Could you? and of course

That would most definitely encompass the Bible, n'est ce pas??

.

As I said, if you want to be militanly stupid, go ahead. And you have gone ahead.

You are emoting because you do not know anything else. You do not understand history, you do not understand science, you do not understand ideas. All you understand is your own resentments and fury and self-righteous rage.

Not an argument.

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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #129 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:48pm

Because, the claim is that apes evolved into humans [i.e. ourselves], over a much shorter time span, than 100-Million-Years.

_ YADDA

Hee hee ... that is funny Yada... guess you don't keep up with archaeological and forensic anthropology.. !! Grin

I assume you don't accept this 'claim;. Rightly so.

Has since been shown that human and ape species share a common 'ancestral trunk' ..but that a divergence occurred and branched off the main trunk, ... so in fact, we evolved along parallel tracks , towards different paths from then.

We are NOT descended from apes.. Roll Eyes

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #130 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:54pm If we evolved in parallel with apes, how come we are so incredibly different from them, even as we share most our our DNA?
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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #131 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 10:02pm

Soren wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:39pm:

Emma wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 9:28pm:

You really don't believe in evolution do you?/

I mean... even in the context of animals, let alone human beings..?? You think we popped into being a mere few thousand yrs ago, by the hand of an almighty creator, all of the multitudinous forms of life , even now extant, all in one go.!! . So, obviously in that time frame evolution wouldn't have TIME to have any effect.!! Roll Eyes

The whole POINT of evolutionary theory, is that organisms, over long periods of time, change characteristics in order to better assimilate into the environment where they exist, so as to continue to survive, as a species.

That is nothing to do with religious thought. I think YOU are stupid, as is my right, and by evidence shown by your posts as proof of that view.

Perhaps, you might consider the idea that humans have evolved,... and , presumably with the ingrained tradition of the West, these ancient men of wisdom are no longer relevant , in particular, to today.??!! Could you? and of course

That would most definitely encompass the Bible, n'est ce pas??

.

As I said, if you want to be militanly stupid, go ahead. And you have gone ahead.

You are emoting because you do not know anything else. You do not understand history, you do not understand science, you do not understand ideas. All you understand is your own resentments and fury and self-righteous rage.

Not an argument.

"..resentments and fury and self righteous rage....."

Dream on wanker.... I'm flat out keeping my eyes open... I can assure you I'm not 'emoting'..nor experiencing anything remotely akin to 'rage'.. Grin

.

And your response..? All you have left is personal insult... entirely ineffective, by the way. As I have lived way longer, and learnt much more than you, you really are a done deal my dear.!

self-righteous wee willy that ye are... Grin

You can only go on for so long claiming the Bible and religion as your proof.... after that you become just a fool. !!

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #132 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 10:08pm I have given you the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. You have given me a stupid, mindless spray of inferiority complex.
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #133 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 10:09pm anyone else want to explain it to soren?? Please ??
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #134 - Nov 3^rd, 2012 at 10:24pm what? you have reached the end of your feminine intellectual limits already? you need a strong, intelligent man to take it from here?
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