Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

Yadda

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #270 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 1:32pm

muso wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 6:45am:

No. Incidentally, as far as the Australian Academy of Science is concerned, they have a very strong view on Intelligent Design.

I noticed this on their website:

http://www.science.org.au/policy/creation.html

Quote:

Intelligent design is not science
More than 70,000 scientists and science teachers are represented in an open letter warning that 'intelligent design' should not be taught in school science classes. The letter was published in major Australian newspapers on 21 October 2005............

Those religious people who belief in literal Creationism and Intelligent Design are in a tiny minority.

Quote:

The following points summarise the view of the Australian Academy of Science on this issue:

All scientific ideas are theories, imperfect and subject to test. That the theory of evolution is imperfect, and still the subject of study and modification, affirms that the theory is part of science. Many attempts to modify and expand the theory have been successful, showing (since Darwin's day) the gene-basis of inheritance, the basis of gene-reproduction in the double helix structure of DNA, the 'genetic drift' basis of the origin of breeds, and so on. Many challenges to the fundamentals of the theory have failed empirical test. The theory has attracted enormous empirical testing and remains one of the most powerful of scientific ideas.
The creationist account of the origin of life has been and remains an important idea in human culture. However, it is not a scientific idea. That is, it is not open to empirical test. It is an article of religious faith.
The creationist account of the origin of life is not, therefore, appropriate to a course in the science of biology, and the claim that it is a viable scientific explanation of the diversity of life does not warrant support.
The Academy sees no objection to the teaching of creationism in schools as part of a course in dogmatic or comparative religion, or in some other non-scientific context. There are no grounds, however, for requiring that creationism and intelligent design be taught as part of a science course.

That is mostly fair.

But inaccurate [underlined].

i.e.
Essentially we truly 'know' very, very, little about our real circumstances, and about the 'reality' that we find ourselves experiencing and perceiving.

We must admit that 'position'.

And, imo, all speculative positions regarding our [mankind's] 'circumstances' and our supposed beginnings, whether presented as, creationism and intelligent design, or, [as has emerged in man's recent history,] in the theory of evolution, .......both positions remain unproven and essentially unprovable, if using any [truly] 'scientific' criteria.

No ?

What empirical data is available that can absolutely prove the validity of the theory of evolution ?

e.g.
What empirical scientific process can prove [empirically] that this earth was formed billions of years ago ?

There is no such process.

We remain, creatures searching for meaning and certainty, ....existing in an altogether uncertain universe.

Dictionary;
empirical = = based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21818 A cat with a view	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #271 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 2:41pm Aeons ago, my antecedent was a hot, molten rock. It is true. But after aeons of evolving, and struggle, and adapting to a changing environment, i now exist as a thinking, conscious entity. That is evolution for you.
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Kytro

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #272 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 3:22pm

Yadda wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 1:32pm:

What empirical data is available that can absolutely prove the validity of the theory of evolution

You cannot prove anything in science, you can only disprove (testable) things, which is why it's always open to revision. The point is the explaining power of the theory is one of the strongest science has provided us with.

Science has shown it's capability with what we have been able to achieve using that method. Once creationist ideas start to get stuff done in the same manner, I might consider them to be worthwhile, but right now the are little more than wishful thinking.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #273 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 5:12pm Yadda wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 2:41pm: Aeons ago, my antecedent was a hot, molten rock. It is true. But after aeons of evolving, and struggle, and adapting to a changing environment, i now exist as a thinking, conscious entity. That is evolution for you. What made you change your mind?
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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #274 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 5:15pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 3:22pm:

Yadda wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 1:32pm:

What empirical data is available that can absolutely prove the validity of the theory of evolution

You cannot prove anything in science, you can only disprove (testable) things, which is why it's always open to revision. The point is the explaining power of the theory is one of the strongest science has provided us with.

Science has shown it's capability with what we have been able to achieve using that method. Once creationist ideas start to get stuff done in the same manner, I might consider them to be worthwhile, but right now the are little more than wishful thinking.

On the other hand, mathematical concepts, such as the Price Equation, which deals with the evolution of things such as altruism, can be proved.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #275 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 7:06pm

muso wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 5:12pm:

Yadda wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

Aeons ago, my antecedent was a hot, molten rock.

It is true.

But after aeons of evolving, and struggle, and adapting to a changing environment, i now exist as a thinking, conscious entity.

That is evolution for you.

CORRECTION;

/sarc off

What made you change your mind?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Kytro

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #276 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 7:23pm

muso wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

On the other hand, mathematical concepts, such as the Price Equation, which deals with the evolution of things such as altruism, can be proved.

Math is a language used to describe observations, and make predictions. We can prove the mathematics is accurate, but not that it models all possible outcomes.

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #277 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 7:28pm

Soren wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 9:51am:

You seem to be confusing technology and even observations of nature with science. Why stop at smelting? Why not declare Freddy Flintsone the firts scientist. Or anything that ever picked up a stick, like an ape?

As I do not think you do this accidently, I am surprised.

Gunpowder manufacture and iron smelting require the application of scientific principles. Could you invent gunpowder? Do you think it's as simple as poking a stick in some buffalo dung?

The prediction of eclipses can not be done without analysing the orbit of the moon. It's a bit more than observation.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #278 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 8:29pm

muso wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 7:28pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 9:51am:

You seem to be confusing technology and even observations of nature with science. Why stop at smelting? Why not declare Freddy Flintsone the first scientist. Or anything that ever picked up a stick, like an ape?

As I do not think you do this accidental, I am surprised.

Gunpowder manufacture and iron smelting require the application of scientific principles. Could you invent gunpowder? Do you think it's as simple as poking a stick in some buffalo dung?

The prediction of eclipses can not be done without analysing the orbit of the moon. It's a bit more than observation.

As I said - you are confusing, on purpose I believe, techne and episteme.

You also widen the meaning of scientia to its pre-modern, pre-scientific meaning which does not include hypothesis, experiments, falsifiability and repeatability - the requirements of what we call science.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #279 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 8:43pm The requirements that Philosophers require for science perhaps. Scientists can generally get on quite well without the Popperian crap.
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #280 - Nov 7^th, 2012 at 9:26pm so tiresome Soren.... what are you arguing about again?? Put it in a sentence please.
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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #281 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 6:43pm

He's basically arguing that sciences such as Astronomy, Cosmology, most Biology, Geology, Botany, Zoology, many branches of Physics, and basically any research which relies on observation rather than Popplerian style "experiments", are not Science.

So all universities should cease and desist including them in their respective Faculties of Science and establish new Faculties of Pseudoscience for those subjects that philosophers of science don't classify as such, while real scientists don't see any useful distinction.

The fact that most Popplerians don't actually understand most basic Scientific theory is quite irrelevent to them. They are as happy as pigs in mud with experiments that seek to determine the nature of Phlogiston, while casting scornful eyes on any actually useful observational science, such as epidemiology.

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« Last Edit: Nov 8^th, 2012 at 6:59pm by muso »

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #282 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 7:01pm All animals observe and adapt according to their environment. At what point does it stop being just 'living' and becomes 'science'? I'm assuming Soren is using the determination of the scientific method as the cut off point.
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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #283 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 8:30pm

muso wrote on Nov 8^th, 2012 at 6:43pm:

He's basically arguing that sciences such as Astronomy, Cosmology, most Biology, Geology, Botany, Zoology, many branches of Physics, and basically any research which relies on observation rather than Popplerian style "experiments", are not Science.

So all universities should cease and desist including them in their respective Faculties of Science and establish new Faculties of Pseudoscience for those subjects that philosophers of science don't classify as such, while real scientists don't see any useful distinction.

The fact that most Popplerians don't actually understand most basic Scientific theory is quite irrelevent to them. They are as happy as pigs in mud with experiments that seek to determine the nature of Phlogiston, while casting scornful eyes on any actually useful observational science, such as epidemiology.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Jjbecher.jpg/187px-Jjbe...

Laughable.

Observation is not enough. Astronomy is based on observation. Alchemy is based on observation. Every kind of fortune telling from the flight of the birds to the entrails of birds is based on observation.
That walnuts are good for brain disease is based on observation. Witch hunts were based on observations of co-occurences.

Not enough to be scientific, though.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #284 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 8:31pm Emma wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 9:26pm: so tiresome Soren.... what are you arguing about again?? Put it in a sentence please. It's not my fault that you left school at 15.
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