Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #405 - Nov 19^th, 2012 at 8:51pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 6:40pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 5:32pm:

Atheism is the default position. That is - not believing in a deity.

SOB

This is not two plank territory, this is the entire bloody sawmill.

The default position is theism. A - theism.

Geddit? (no)

You could not be the atheist you are if there has not been theism. A simple fact in the history of ideas - but what would you know about that, eh, ideas?

'No idea' is your default position.

No you are not born with a belief in anything. The default position is a lack of belief.

SOB

Yes. You are also born with a lack of control over your bowel movements. And lack of speech, lack of conceptual thought, lack of memory.

I can see why YOU would think that these are all humanity's default positions - you have not moved on from any of these bases, Spot of Lack.

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« Last Edit: Nov 19^th, 2012 at 11:37pm by Soren »

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #406 - Nov 19^th, 2012 at 9:40pm

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 8:41pm:

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 6:52pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 6:00pm:

Are you saying that in the final analysis, the sun makes evolution possible? The Sun's energy input into the Earth's biosphere is great enough to counter the general principle of entropy?

Oh no. That was just your own personal gigantic extrapolation. I was just addressing the little nagging point you had about Entropy. "Well I'll be bugged" you said. Be bugged no more. Pax vobiscum.

I thought you said that the energy received by Earth from the Sun counters the general entropy of the universe at large.
The input of energy from the Sun allows the Earth NOT to go the way of the Moon or any of the other barren planets across the universe.

No?

( I know you smell a rat re climate, but there it is, an honest question about the opposing tendencies towards decay and complexity.)

Let's take it one step at a time. You have a habit of oversimplifying and de-constructing, so I'm being cautious. The energy from the sun is one factor that makes life on Earth possible. It provides energy that counters the tendency for Entropy to increase.

you said :

Quote:

According to the second law of thermodynamics (science), the universe is winding down. According to evolutionary theory, life forms are become increasingly complex.

Your view of the second law of thermodynamics is somewhat lacking. To make more sense, the second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system always increases or remains constant. Of course the Earth is not an isolated system.

Secondly, I don't know which evolutionary theory you've been reading, but life forms simply adapt to their environmental constraints. Does that mean increased complexity? Well no. Do you know which organism has the biggest genome? The organism that by inference has done more adaptation than any other? - not homo sapiens - It's a bloody flower - Paris japonica. Homo Sapiens has a mere 25000 (protein encoding) genes, give or take a few. The marbled lungfish, Protopterus aethiopicus is not far behind the flower with about 1 million genes, or 40 times the amount of DNA per cell than humans.

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« Last Edit: Nov 19^th, 2012 at 10:00pm by muso »

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #407 - Nov 19^th, 2012 at 10:05pm just a thought on numbers of genomes/.. I'd suggest it is obvious that the more complexity in the DNA, the older the possessor of that DNA is. Most of those genomes would constitute redundant DNA, wouldn't they.? DNA does , IMO, utterly support the evolutionary theory.. it is written in our genes. !!
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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #408 - Nov 19^th, 2012 at 10:12pm

No?

( I know you smell a rat re climate, but there it is, an honest question about the opposing tendencies towards decay and complexity.)
_ Soren

I don't actually see your point here>.... WHO SAID
???

DECAY has tendencies in opposition to COMPLEXITY.?? or vice versa... ??

You make a very broad assumption...

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #409 - Nov 19^th, 2012 at 11:33pm

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 9:40pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 8:41pm:

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 6:52pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 6:00pm:

Are you saying that in the final analysis, the sun makes evolution possible? The Sun's energy input into the Earth's biosphere is great enough to counter the general principle of entropy?

Oh no. That was just your own personal gigantic extrapolation. I was just addressing the little nagging point you had about Entropy. "Well I'll be bugged" you said. Be bugged no more. Pax vobiscum.

I thought you said that the energy received by Earth from the Sun counters the general entropy of the universe at large.
The input of energy from the Sun allows the Earth NOT to go the way of the Moon or any of the other barren planets across the universe.

No?

( I know you smell a rat re climate, but there it is, an honest question about the opposing tendencies towards decay and complexity.)

Let's take it one step at a time. You have a habit of oversimplifying and de-constructing, so I'm being cautious. The energy from the sun is one factor that makes life on Earth possible. It provides energy that counters the tendency for Entropy to increase.

you said :

Quote:

According to the second law of thermodynamics (science), the universe is winding down. According to evolutionary theory, life forms are become increasingly complex.

Your view of the second law of thermodynamics is somewhat lacking. To make more sense, the second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system always increases or remains constant. Of course the Earth is not an isolated system.

Secondly, I don't know which evolutionary theory you've been reading, but life forms simply adapt to their environmental constraints. Does that mean increased complexity? Well no. Do you know which organism has the biggest genome? The organism that by inference has done more adaptation than any other? - not homo sapiens - It's a bloody flower - Paris japonica. Homo Sapiens has a mere 25000 (protein encoding) genes, give or take a few. The marbled lungfish, Protopterus aethiopicus is not far behind the flower with about 1 million genes, or 40 times the amount of DNA per cell than humans.

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201010/r652408_4598456.jpg

So now it' about the number of DNA per cell, is it? (data, data everywhere, not a thought to think)
A plant is now more complex a life form than a human being? Or what?
A plant has more DNA than me - yet it still gets eaten by the first goat that comes along while I get only mildly bothered by the passing Spot of Lack.

Is that entropy or evolution? Remind us, will ya.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #410 - Nov 19^th, 2012 at 11:36pm

Emma wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 10:12pm:

No?

( I know you smell a rat re climate, but there it is, an honest question about the opposing tendencies towards decay and complexity.)
_ Soren

I don't actually see your point here>.... WHO SAID
???

DECAY has tendencies in opposition to COMPLEXITY.?? or vice versa... ??

You make a very broad assumption...

Try to say something coherent next time. See how you go.

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #411 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 12:32am can I help it if you are thick as....2 planks? Also ..read my post re DNA and redundancy and age.... of course you won't acknowledge that, because it pisses on your point.
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Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #412 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 1:17am

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 6:00pm:

Emma wrote on Nov 18^th, 2012 at 9:52pm:

muso wrote on Nov 18^th, 2012 at 8:57pm:

By the way, you guys think that Soren is arguing from a religious position. He isn't. He's arguing from an anti-science position. I've said it before and he hasn't contradicted it.

Er I don't know about that Muso.
I suggest he is arguing from a religious position, which includes his anti-science views.

After all, this is about 'Atheism'... this thread. Isn't it? Not science per se. ??
And Soren is anti - atheist...that's obvious.

Don't give the ideocrat too much credit. !! Angry

I don't think he's even religious.
To be specific (and this is how the discussion went sideways), he objects to (claims of) anything other than the Popperian definition of the scientific method. Of course this is an incredibly crippled view of the scientific method that scoffs at 90 percent of observational science. That's enough to warrant an anti-science label.

He doesn't object to the scientific method itself. (at least on a strictly Popperian basis).

I don't classify myself as an Atheist because I have no need to be an Atheist. It's not important to me. There must be a definition of god out there that comprises the universe as we see it (and as we don't see it) - the god that is nature. To claim that there is no god of any definition is just a tad disingenuous in my humble opinion and that's why I don't classify myself as an atheist, as an agnostic or even as a theist. - and Spot, that's my personal view. You believe whatever you want.

Although he probably hates being categorised, I'd place Soren in the (non religious) Cultural Christianity category.
Of course I doubt if he will actually confirm or deny that.

Me too.!

I think we are on the same 'page' Roll Eyes

..err ... here Muso.. about our friend Soren.

In a prev post I said

'I suggest he is arguing from a religious position, which includes his anti-science views'.

I meant .....it is only an argumentary 'position'. I don't think he 'believes'.. as I've said
In an even earlier post, where I said he was just arguing for the sake of it, and he didn't really believe what he was arguing about .

Its back there somewhere...
and I repeat it .... he is having fun having an argument,

as am I , actually.

Where there is no chance that I am going to be physically, or emotionally, attacked for having an opinion of my own, and ...hey .. it's all GOOD.!!

.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #413 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 4:31am

Quantum wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 7:01pm:

Assuming that to be true, knowing for a fact that there is no god once the concept of one has been presented to you is not a default position. You were not born knowing for a fact that there is no god, as that is a position that you can only take later on in life. In fact, you even admitted that when you said that it was the people of this forum that made you go that way.

Not believing in a god may be default. Knowing for sure that there is no god is not default. Both positions fit within the broader definition of atheism. You want to hide behind a position of objectivity by claiming the first whilst very clearly believing the second.

No i did not say ppl in this forum made me believe anything. As if you have that much influence. Hahaha! I said that i altered my strategy for dealing with you trolls (fairy king etc no respect). Why should respect your silly "beliefs" when you have no respect for anyone else?

You have no idea what i "believe" BTW. You think you do because you want me to believe something (whatever it is you want me to believe) but you have no idea.

Atheism is the default position. Religion is added later. This is why religion should not be taught in schools and children shouldn't be exposed to it until they are old enough to think rationally.

Quote:

You total retard. You joined on the 8th of April. I joined on the 18th of April (and started reading from the 26th of January). What kind of mental deficiency must you have to think that my knowing of your posting habits is evidence of me being a sock? Had you joined 2 years before me fine... But 10 days?

Your BS about me needs backing up because you are obviously a liar then. you reckon you know but you have never ever supplied any links or proof.

SOB

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Quantum

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #414 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 7:28am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 4:31am:

Quantum wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 7:01pm:

Assuming that to be true, knowing for a fact that there is no god once the concept of one has been presented to you is not a default position. You were not born knowing for a fact that there is no god, as that is a position that you can only take later on in life. In fact, you even admitted that when you said that it was the people of this forum that made you go that way.

Not believing in a god may be default. Knowing for sure that there is no god is not default. Both positions fit within the broader definition of atheism. You want to hide behind a position of objectivity by claiming the first whilst very clearly believing the second.

No i did not say ppl in this forum made me believe anything. As if you have that much influence. Hahaha! I said that i altered my strategy for dealing with you trolls (fairy king etc no respect). Why should respect your silly "beliefs" when you have no respect for anyone else?

You have no idea what i "believe" BTW. You think you do because you want me to believe something (whatever it is you want me to believe) but you have no idea.

Atheism is the default position. Religion is added later. This is why religion should not be taught in schools and children shouldn't be exposed to it until they are old enough to think rationally.

Quote:

You total retard. You joined on the 8th of April. I joined on the 18th of April (and started reading from the 26th of January). What kind of mental deficiency must you have to think that my knowing of your posting habits is evidence of me being a sock? Had you joined 2 years before me fine... But 10 days?

Your BS about me needs backing up because you are obviously a liar then. you reckon you know but you have never ever supplied any links or proof.

SOB

Horseshit, from start to finish. Everything you just said is irrational, illogical, and immature beyond all possible description. Every idea in your post, represented by the words in the order you just put them in, is complete and utter horseshit. Everyone in this thread just got stupider for having read that. You need help, and I pity you.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #415 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 8:28am

Quantum wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 7:28am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 4:31am:

Quantum wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 7:01pm:

Assuming that to be true, knowing for a fact that there is no god once the concept of one has been presented to you is not a default position. You were not born knowing for a fact that there is no god, as that is a position that you can only take later on in life. In fact, you even admitted that when you said that it was the people of this forum that made you go that way.

Not believing in a god may be default. Knowing for sure that there is no god is not default. Both positions fit within the broader definition of atheism. You want to hide behind a position of objectivity by claiming the first whilst very clearly believing the second.

No i did not say ppl in this forum made me believe anything. As if you have that much influence. Hahaha! I said that i altered my strategy for dealing with you trolls (fairy king etc no respect). Why should respect your silly "beliefs" when you have no respect for anyone else?

You have no idea what i "believe" BTW. You think you do because you want me to believe something (whatever it is you want me to believe) but you have no idea.

Atheism is the default position. Religion is added later. This is why religion should not be taught in schools and children shouldn't be exposed to it until they are old enough to think rationally.

Quote:

You total retard. You joined on the 8th of April. I joined on the 18th of April (and started reading from the 26th of January). What kind of mental deficiency must you have to think that my knowing of your posting habits is evidence of me being a sock? Had you joined 2 years before me fine... But 10 days?

Your BS about me needs backing up because you are obviously a liar then. you reckon you know but you have never ever supplied any links or proof.

SOB

Horseshit, from start to finish. Everything you just said is irrational, illogical, and immature beyond all possible description. Every idea in your post, represented by the words in the order you just put them in, is complete and utter horseshit. Everyone in this thread just got stupider for having read that. You need help, and I pity you.

Oh so that one hurt huh? You cant argue and you cant provide any evidence. Now you have to lash out. Hilarious.

SOB

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Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #416 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 8:44am

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 11:33pm:

So now it' about the number of DNA per cell, is it? (data, data everywhere, not a thought to think)
A plant is now more complex a life form than a human being? Or what?
A plant has more DNA than me - yet it still gets eaten by the first goat that comes along while I get only mildly bothered by the passing Spot of Lack.

Is that entropy or evolution? Remind us, will ya.

Spot would definitely be more on the entropy and less on the evolution.

There you go deconstructing again. My point was about evolution not being always a tendency towards more complex life forms. Some life forms are perfectly adapted to their environment and have hardly changed through time. An example is a brachiopod found in the intertidal zone in many parts of the world, including Australia. The genus is Lingula, and they have existed almost unchanged since the Ordovician Period about 450 million years ago.

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #417 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 8:53am

Emma wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 1:17am:

Me too.!

I think we are on the same 'page' Roll Eyes

..err ... here Muso.. about our friend Soren.

In a prev post I said

'I suggest he is arguing from a religious position, which includes his anti-science views'.

I meant .....it is only an argumentary 'position'. I don't think he 'believes'.. as I've said
In an even earlier post, where I said he was just arguing for the sake of it, and he didn't really believe what he was arguing about .

Its back there somewhere...
and I repeat it .... he is having fun having an argument,

as am I , actually.

Where there is no chance that I am going to be physically, or emotionally, attacked for having an opinion of my own, and ...hey .. it's all GOOD.!!

Yes, I read that too, but it's not a very skillful tactic to simplify and deconstruct everything. Is it? It might have the intended result of irritation though. Any well thought out explanations generally get a gross oversimplification. So if you get a gross oversimplification from Soren, you know that you're on the right track.

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Quantum

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #418 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 2:41pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 8:28am:

Quantum wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 7:28am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 4:31am:

Quantum wrote on Nov 19^th, 2012 at 7:01pm:

Assuming that to be true, knowing for a fact that there is no god once the concept of one has been presented to you is not a default position. You were not born knowing for a fact that there is no god, as that is a position that you can only take later on in life. In fact, you even admitted that when you said that it was the people of this forum that made you go that way.

Not believing in a god may be default. Knowing for sure that there is no god is not default. Both positions fit within the broader definition of atheism. You want to hide behind a position of objectivity by claiming the first whilst very clearly believing the second.

No i did not say ppl in this forum made me believe anything. As if you have that much influence. Hahaha! I said that i altered my strategy for dealing with you trolls (fairy king etc no respect). Why should respect your silly "beliefs" when you have no respect for anyone else?

You have no idea what i "believe" BTW. You think you do because you want me to believe something (whatever it is you want me to believe) but you have no idea.

Atheism is the default position. Religion is added later. This is why religion should not be taught in schools and children shouldn't be exposed to it until they are old enough to think rationally.

Quote:

You total retard. You joined on the 8th of April. I joined on the 18th of April (and started reading from the 26th of January). What kind of mental deficiency must you have to think that my knowing of your posting habits is evidence of me being a sock? Had you joined 2 years before me fine... But 10 days?

Your BS about me needs backing up because you are obviously a liar then. you reckon you know but you have never ever supplied any links or proof.

SOB

Horseshit, from start to finish. Everything you just said is irrational, illogical, and immature beyond all possible description. Every idea in your post, represented by the words in the order you just put them in, is complete and utter horseshit. Everyone in this thread just got stupider for having read that. You need help, and I pity you.

Oh so that one hurt huh? You cant argue and you cant provide any evidence. Now you have to lash out. Hilarious.

SOB

Are you really this chaotic and stupid in real life, or is it just a show you put on for the forum? You seriously seem to be getting dumber, more confused, and more inconsistent every day. Do you actually know what you are typing these days, or has it gotten to the point you just let the drool off your chin hit random keys for you?

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26510 Australia	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #419 - Nov 20^th, 2012 at 5:09pm You really dont like being shown up do you hahahahahahahahaha SOB
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