Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

Emma

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #480 - Nov 27^th, 2012 at 9:03pm

well yes, I definitely understand what you are saying, and it's hard to be at cross purposes.
No I don't specifically remember when you entered the discussion.. but

Muso is trying to say, I think, that mathematical statistical analysis CAN be used as a tool in particular areas to do with human interaction. I don't think he is saying EVERY human action is so quantifiable.

I myself earlier stated that altruistic behaviour would seem not to be of particular relevance to human development, in the long term, but that it is not impossible, I could be wrong.. it may well be a favourable trait. I know we would all like to think so.

However you are saying , really, that no human interactions can be evaluated through mathematical analysis. On that basis, I don't agree with you, thats all.

We , and our interactions, are governed by much much more than the thinking mind.
There's quite a list actually.
No doubt Muso could fill you in.

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live every day

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #481 - Nov 28^th, 2012 at 12:20am Actually, I quite enjoy a Ridley and Tony Scott television show ... Numb3rs. It's all about this ..... and not bad, IMO. Not that I understand the mathematics utilised, but some people will.
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Fit of Absent Mindeness Gold Member Offline We need more fits of absent mindedness Posts: 1622 Brisbane Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #482 - Dec 7^th, 2012 at 9:56am I love that link Creationism isn't science - evolution is evolving all the time/scientists have been known to change their opinions over time! As for what happened to the dinosaurs - google Chicxulub crater.
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True Colours Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2837 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #483 - Sep 1^st, 2013 at 2:13am
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Postmodern Trendoid Gold Member Offline International socialist Posts: 892 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #484 - Sep 1^st, 2013 at 12:43pm As a progressive I am a staunch, militant atheist, yet I also accept the Islamic creation narrative. I just do not accept the Christian creation story. This is progress.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #485 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 5:24pm

True Colours wrote on Sep 1^st, 2013 at 2:13am:

So what does Islam say about evolution.

Quote:

The Prophet said allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall.
Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure).
People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/60/1

The prophet said Adam was about 90 ft tall, would that make Adam nearly as tall as the giant in jack and the beanstalk?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #486 - Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:02pm Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Sep 1^st, 2013 at 12:43pm: As a progressive I am a staunch, militant atheist, yet I also accept the Islamic creation narrative. I just do not accept the Christian creation story. This is progress. Salad in right? Same satirical agenda at least.
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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #487 - Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:04pm

This discussion is old. It's like going back in a time warp. One notable quote that I largely agree with. Let me find it. I must have been busy at the time.

Soren wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 10:39am:

I said no. But that theory isn't any less unbelievable than the notion that the human mind, this most complex and unique thing, came as a result of random permutation of matter in a relative blink of an eye.

You see, the human brain in its complexity can't be defined in terms of genetic code. I regard the human mind as a property of the human brain. Others can regard it as they see fit.

I think I said earlier that the complexity of the human brain (mind) is programmed into a relatively blank canvas of 200 billion brain cells from the time of birth (which rapidly declines to 100 billion). It's self programmed on the basis of input - input from family, friends, society and curious investigation of the world. Without that input (those nice fuzzy human factors that Soren spoke of- individual human beings and their interactions), there is virtually no innate intelligence.

Those people who are starved of mental stimulation from an early age have a very limited prognosis. We all know this instinctively

The structure of the brain is certainly a prerequisite for that development, but that basic structure has remained essentially the same for hundreds of thousands of years.

What has prompted the (non genetic) "evolution" (creation?) of intelligence/sentience/ the mind is open to conjecture, and some have cited environmental factors, such as living in the constraints of an ice age. It's an interesting question. When did the flame ignite?

Personally, I'd add the development of language to that. I feel that language is the key to intelligence etc. To paraphrase:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the mind, and the Word was the mind.

Tongue

Now given that the individual mind relies on the perpetuity of the collective and eternal (αἰώνιον) mind of humanity, it makes a lot of sense.

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« Last Edit: Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:40pm by muso »

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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #488 - Sep 10^th, 2013 at 3:01pm

Pallas Athene, goddess of wisdom, civilisation, mathematics, law and justice, sprang fully grown and armed from Zeus's head. It illustrates how the idea of evolutionary development of the mind, and it's vehicle, language, are hard to imagine, if not outright inconceivable. Language is learned by babies because it already fully exists around them.

As you put it, Muso, we can't imagine the evolution of the flame.

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #489 - Sep 10^th, 2013 at 5:03pm

Hermes has been pretty powerful lately too.

Hermes is the god of transitions and boundaries. He is quick and cunning

(Except during periods of high traffic)

, and moves freely between the worlds of the mortal and divine, as emissary and messenger of the gods, intercessor between mortals and the divine, and conductor of souls into the afterlife. He is protector and patron of travelers, herdsmen, thieves, orators and wit, literature and poets, athletics and sports, invention and trade. He is a trickster, and outwits other gods for his own satisfaction or the sake of humankind.

Hermes, God of the Internet Grin

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« Last Edit: Sep 10^th, 2013 at 5:09pm by muso »

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #490 - Sep 10^th, 2013 at 8:49pm I thought Al Gore was the god of the internet. No longer?
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #491 - Sep 10^th, 2013 at 9:27pm He's just an ex-politician.
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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #492 - Sep 11^th, 2013 at 11:36am

This just in - a review of EO Wilson's latest offering, The Social Conquest of Earth. It touches on the poverty of both Wilsoniana and Dawkinsian evolutionary theory, showing whu both miss the main point - how did our freedom from nature evolve?
http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/9011191/the-social-conquest-of-earth-by-edward-...

What marks out humankind as unique is the degree to which we have broken free from the dictates of instinct. We may in terms of our individual ‘ego-instincts’, such as our urges to eat, sleep, live in social groups and reproduce our species, be just as much governed by instinct as other creatures. But in all the ways in which we give expression to those urges, how we build our shelters, obtain our food, organise our societies. we are no longer guided entirely by instinct. Unlike any other species, we have become free to imagine how all these things can be done differently. Whereas one ant colony is structured exactly like another, the forms of human organisation may vary as widely as a North Korean dictatorship and a village cricket club.

It is our ability to escape from the rigid frame of instinct which explains almost everything that distinguishes human beings from any other form of life.
..
Nothing is more comical about Darwinians than the contortions they get into in trying to explain those ‘altruistic’ aspects of human nature which might seem to contradict their belief that the evolutionary drive is always essentially self-centred (seen at its most extreme in Dawkins’s ‘selfish gene’ theory). Wilson’s thesis finally crumbles when he comes up with absurdly reductionist explanations for the emergence of the creative arts and religion. Forget Bach’s B Minor Mass or the deeper insights of the Hindu scriptures — as a lapsed Southern Baptist, he caricatures the religious instinct of mankind as little more than the stunted form of faith he escaped from.

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Postmodern Trendoid Gold Member Offline International socialist Posts: 892 Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #493 - Sep 11^th, 2013 at 3:30pm At what point does something stop being instinct? Something is instinct one day, then not the next because ...? To avoid falling back into dualism, all human activity - from sleeping to high art - must be a form of instinct.
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Soren

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #494 - Sep 11^th, 2013 at 10:55pm

Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Sep 11^th, 2013 at 3:30pm:

At what point does something stop being instinct? Something is instinct one day, then not the next because ...?

To avoid falling back into dualism, all human activity - from sleeping to high art - must be a form of instinct.

On what basis do we need to 'avoid falling back into dualism'?

Is the question, "At what point does something stop being instinct?" a mere matter of instinct? By your reckoning, it is as is every mental activity - both agreeing with the statement and opposing it, every mental state and its opposite are instincts, all essentially indistinguishable from animal behaviour from and and bees to apes and human.

This is 'avoiding the fall back into dualism' carried to its absurd conclusion.

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