Australian Politics Forum - Evidence of Evolution being a hoax

Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #75 - Oct 26^th, 2012 at 9:14pm

... wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 1:49pm:

It does get convoluted, that's for sure. Some books that can help get your head around it. I'm not even gonna try to explain what they take several hundred pages to say.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996

http://www.amazon.com/The-Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial/dp/0670031518

I'll give them a read. I've read a bit of Pinker before, so he is already on my reading list.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #76 - Oct 26^th, 2012 at 9:24pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 9:12pm:

I don't believe there is a separation between the flesh (materialism) and spirit (idealism). They both work in a strange unison, constantly feeding off each other. The material is understood through the mind (idealised) and vice versa, the ideal needs the material for there to be idealism.

Not sure if that makes sense.

I would have put it as;

The material needs the ideal, to avoid chaos.

God will have his way. Wink

We need laws, to create and secure order, .....in the same way that there are laws in the natural world/universe.

Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Creation is not finished.

Creation is still in process.

And God will have his way.

We are the creatures, he, is the creator, he is our creator.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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sanofi

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #77 - Oct 27^th, 2012 at 4:57am

Yadda wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 9:24pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 9:12pm:

I don't believe there is a separation between the flesh (materialism) and spirit (idealism). They both work in a strange unison, constantly feeding off each other. The material is understood through the mind (idealised) and vice versa, the ideal needs the material for there to be idealism.

Not sure if that makes sense.

I would have put it as;

The material needs the ideal, to avoid chaos.

God will have his way. Wink

We need laws, to create and secure order, .....in the same way that there are laws in the natural world/universe.

Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Creation is not finished.

Creation is still in process.

And God will have his way.

We are the creatures, he, is the creator, he is our creator.

Hi Yadda, your piece there was simply marvellous. Not being a particularly religious person myself, after reading your post, I was moved to put getting a bible on my must do list.
I have heard that you can get bibles with pictures.

"And God will have his way."

Would that part be illustrated?

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26510 Australia	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #78 - Oct 27^th, 2012 at 5:58am We already have laws yadda. Are you talking about creating a theocracy? Luckily your kind of extremism is a minority and its unlikely to happen. SOB
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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #79 - Oct 27^th, 2012 at 7:26am

Yadda wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 8:24pm:

That's subjective, isn't it.

Evolution is not.

Evolution is the bondage of the flesh.

Idealism, is seeking the spirit.

Do you want to live in the world ?

Live in the world !

And go the way of all flesh !!

Give me strength to post a non sarcastic reply........ OK.

Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. It's observable, and the shorter the life span of the organism, the faster it occurs. In waste treatment, bacteria such as pseudomonas aeruginosa for example, can be fed progressively higher levels of certain toxic wastes. Over a period of several months, the organism gradually adapts to the change in its environment so that finally, it bears little resemblance to the original bacteria. It becomes a separate species.

It has nothing to do with morality or religion. It's just a property of life. Some (most) religious people even say that God created the huge diversity of life through evolutionary processes, and that the ability of life to adapt to its environment is a beautiful thing.

If we take the premise that God = nature, in other words, god is a word used to describe naturalistic processes that exist, I don't have too many quarrels with that view because after all there is a certain unity in all life on Earth.

Evolution and abiogenesis are also totally different subjects. Don't confuse the two.

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #80 - Oct 27^th, 2012 at 7:56am

Quote:

I have heard that you can get bibles with pictures.

"And God will have his way."

Would that part be illustrated?

Which would you like? Jupiter and Io, Jupiter and Thetis, Jupiter with Leda? (The mother of Castor and Pollux)

Jupiter (Deus Pater) God the father, or the Greek version Zeus (Deus = God)

They all have a similar mythological lineage.

Matthew 1:18 (International Standard Version)
Quote:

Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah happened in this way. When his mother Mary was engaged to Joseph, before they lived together she was discovered to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

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« Last Edit: Oct 27^th, 2012 at 8:01am by muso »

ingres_jupiter_and_thetis.jpg (187 KB | 131 )

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #81 - Oct 28^th, 2012 at 2:48pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 8:13pm:

Evolution is another 'expression' of savagery.......

This, is the spirit of 'evolution', expressed;

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian

It is 'the way of man'.

i.e.
It is the spirit of;

'We can do whatever we like, because we have the power to do as we wish.'

muso wrote on Oct 27^th, 2012 at 7:26am:

Give me strength to post a non sarcastic reply........ OK.

Evolution......

........has nothing to do with morality or religion.

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian

muso,

The 'ideal' so ably expressed by Thucydides in the quote, has a very close approximation to the driving 'principle' that is expressed in 'evolution'.

Or are you arguing against my position,
....that in the workings of 'evolution', there is a total absence of morality ?

And that the virtue of evolution is that it is a 'natural' philosophy, that has been used by 'modern', 'sophisticated' man, to justify man's moral apathy, and his widespread abandonment of morality.

i.e.

'We can do whatever we like, because we have the power to do as we wish.'

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #82 - Oct 28^th, 2012 at 6:14pm

I'm making the point that evolution has nothing to do with morality in the same way that a hawk swooping on its prey has nothing to do with morality.

There is absolutely no implication that you can't have evolution and morality. Of course you can, in the same way that you can enjoy an occasional glass of Glen Morangie and still live a virtuous life. (there is no connection between the two)

Your quotation from Thucydides has nothing to do with Evolution either. Evolution is about adaptation of species over several life cycles. It has nothing to do with the strong taking advantage of the weak. If anything there are evolutionary advantages of altruism and working within society rather than selfish dominating behaviour.

Evolution is just a biological principle. That's all.

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« Last Edit: Oct 28^th, 2012 at 6:19pm by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #83 - Oct 28^th, 2012 at 6:40pm

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 6:14pm:

I'm making the point that evolution has nothing to do with morality in the same way that a hawk swooping on its prey has nothing to do with morality.

There is absolutely no implication that you can't have evolution and morality.

Of course you can, in the same way that you can enjoy an occasional glass of Glen Morangie and still live a virtuous life. (there is no connection between the two)

Your quotation from Thucydides has nothing to do with Evolution either. Evolution is about adaptation of species over several life cycles. It has nothing to do with the strong taking advantage of the weak. If anything there are evolutionary advantages of altruism and working within society rather than selfish dominating behaviour.

Evolution is just a biological principle. That's all.

If evolution is morally neutral, then why do groups of men and women who come together forming a society, find it necessary to formulate laws, that clearly oppose the nature of evolution in mankind's nature ?

e.g.
Why can't i have sex with your partner, and with my cousin's partner, and with the partner of a friend who is visiting from the next valley/town ? [......coz, many animals have free sex, with many partners.]

And why can't i kill and eat your child, .....when i am starving ? [......coz, i am just a hawk swooping on its prey.]

etc.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #84 - Oct 28^th, 2012 at 7:02pm

- because as human beings, we have a sense of morality and altruism, which is entirely separate from evolutionary processes.

In terms of modern humanity, we are shielded from many evolutionary processes because of modern medicine. Nowadays, people tend to die many years after they are at their peak for reproduction. Back in the 19th century, childhood death was quite common. Why do you think that was? Do you think your Thucydides quote was in any way relevant to that?

Either way, it doesn't always mean that the strongest of a species will survive. In the case of an environment where most of the food is found buried deep in the mud, a bird with a longer beak may survive better than one with a shorter beak. Perceptible variations in higher species can take place over several thousand years.

It doesn't always imply stronger individuals taking advantage of weaker individuals. For example, pygmy species may be better adapted to nutrient poor environments.

By the way, Google the "Price Equation".

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« Last Edit: Oct 28^th, 2012 at 7:20pm by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #85 - Oct 28^th, 2012 at 7:26pm

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 7:02pm:

- because as human beings, we have a sense of morality and altruism, which is entirely separate from evolutionary processes.

Yeah, as we can see being demonstrated in the Syrian conflict today.

Did you see, how all sides, came together, to respect the ceasefire over the religious holiday period ???
/sarc off

Dream on muso.

You are living in la la land.

Quote:

In terms of modern humanity, we are shielded from many evolutionary processes because of modern medicine. Nowadays, people tend to die many years after they are at their peak for reproduction. Back in the 19th century, childhood death was quite common. Why do you think that was? Do you think your Thucydides quote was in any way relevant to that?

No.

But that Thucydides quote is ever much as valid today, as it was in antiquity.

muso,

Technologically, man has made great achievements.

But morally ???

The 'human condition' still applies today, just as it did in Thucydides day.

Google;

united nations, crime, corruption, bribery

Quote:

Either way, it doesn't always mean that the strongest of a species will survive. In the case of an environment where most of the food is found buried deep in the mud, a bird with a longer beak may survive better than one with a shorter beak. Perceptible variations in higher species can take place over several thousand years.

No.

But it is hard-wired into all species, to not go gentle into that good night.

i.e.
All individual creatures seem to have a built in response, to will fight tooth and claw, to fend off a predator.

Quote:

It doesn't always imply stronger individuals taking advantage of weaker individuals. For example, pygmy species may be better adapted to nutrient poor environments.

In history, in sieges, parents have eaten their own children.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #86 - Oct 28^th, 2012 at 7:40pm

People are capable of both good and bad. That's the bottom line, although generally, it's true that those who live by the sword die by the sword.

Do you think I don't know about atrocities? I worked in a society once where if you didn't like somebody, you could arrange for a hitman, and the police could be bribed. (In a predominately Christian society in Africa)

Some people did exactly that. How do you think that affected their survival prospects? (Those who live by the sword....)

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #87 - Oct 29^th, 2012 at 5:21am

Yadda wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 6:40pm:

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 6:14pm:

I'm making the point that evolution has nothing to do with morality in the same way that a hawk swooping on its prey has nothing to do with morality.

There is absolutely no implication that you can't have evolution and morality.

Of course you can, in the same way that you can enjoy an occasional glass of Glen Morangie and still live a virtuous life. (there is no connection between the two)

Your quotation from Thucydides has nothing to do with Evolution either. Evolution is about adaptation of species over several life cycles. It has nothing to do with the strong taking advantage of the weak. If anything there are evolutionary advantages of altruism and working within society rather than selfish dominating behaviour.

Evolution is just a biological principle. That's all.

If evolution is morally neutral, then why do groups of men and women who come together forming a society, find it necessary to formulate laws, that clearly oppose the nature of evolution in mankind's nature ?

e.g.
Why can't i have sex with your partner, and with my cousin's partner, and with the partner of a friend who is visiting from the next valley/town ? [......coz, many animals have free sex, with many partners.]

And why can't i kill and eat your child, .....when i am starving ? [......coz, i am just a hawk swooping on its prey.]

etc.

Really? There are laws against adultery? What world do you live in yadda? There is nothing stopping humans having "free sex" except their own principles. Some ppl do. They are called "swingers". There are no laws against it.

Murder is illegal because of perpetuation of the species.

SOB

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I'm a
Moron!

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...

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Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax
Reply #88 - Oct 29^th, 2012 at 4:25pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 9:14pm:

... wrote on Oct 26^th, 2012 at 1:49pm:

It does get convoluted, that's for sure. Some books that can help get your head around it. I'm not even gonna try to explain what they take several hundred pages to say.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996

http://www.amazon.com/The-Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial/dp/0670031518

I'll give them a read. I've read a bit of Pinker before, so he is already on my reading list.

Stumbled upon a coupla short articles on this;

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwin-eternity/201205/self-interest-god-s-i...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwin-eternity/201107/how-science-can-help-...

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In the fullness of time...

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Evidence of Evolution being a hoax Reply #89 - Oct 30^th, 2012 at 5:50pm Did anybody Google the Price Equation?
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