Australian Politics Forum - Can quantum physics explain the perception of self

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #15 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:32pm No matter how hard I try Just can't close the book at.. How.
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bobbythefap1

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #16 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:34pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:28pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:21pm:

Can quantum physics explain the perception of self??

Surely...

you're joking!

And, who can understand 'quantum physics' ??

Its something to do with the existence and action of neutrinos, isn't it ??? Tongue

I think quantum physicists may understand it.

In the simplest sense its studying the behavior of particles on the smallest scales possible.

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Yadda

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #17 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:41pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:14pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 7:23pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 5:26pm:

OBE's are pretty obviously a product of the pineal glands production of DMT.

Not really.

There is no evidence that DMT has any influence in producing OBE's.

Have you ever experienced a waking OBE ?

And, how would you explain the perception [during an OBE] of [real, existing] physical objects, that you could not/or had not been aware of [nor seen] while awake in your body ???

i.e.
The existence of physical objects, perceived during and OBE, and the existence of which, is confirmed [by going there], after the OBE, when 'awake', back in your body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

Many people who take DMT as a drug experience OBE's.
DMT is produced in the pineal gland and released primarily while one is sleeping, its what causes us to dream.
When you wake out of REM you would still have DMT active in your brain which creates OBE's and other experiences like lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis. When people wake up normally they do not come directly out of REM which is why people aren't tripping all the time.
What more of a link could you really need?

If your waking up out of REM in a semi concision state how can someone be certain they did not open their eyes and see the objects for example?

Quote:

And i do not take 'recreational' or psychotropic drugs.

Apart from DMT.

Quote:

Have you ever experienced a waking OBE ?

I have experienced DMT after waking up from REM once, sort of like sleep paralysis.

If you are lucid, 'sleep paralysis', can often be experienced just before the OBE event.

Sleep paralysis is a little unnerving [especially if you have never 'experienced' it before!] and especially if you try to 'act' in your body.

But you can not act in your body, because in that state you experience consciousness [your mind is conscious], but your body is not responsive to your minds 'orders' !

Quote:

If your waking up out of REM in a semi concision state how can someone be certain they did not open their eyes and see the objects for example?

???

Coz teh objects are/can be, remote to the viewers body.

When you are within the OBE, you are not [necessarily] confined to the proximity of your body.

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #18 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:46pm

Quote:

If you are lucid, 'sleep paralysis', can often be experienced just before the OBE event.

Sleep paralysis is a little unnerving [especially if you have never 'experienced' it before!] if you try to 'act' in your body.

But you can not act in your body, because in that state you experience consciousness [your mind is conscious], but your body is not responsive to your minds 'orders' !

I was able to wake myself up pretty quickly but yes it was actually pretty scary as I had giant spiders crawling all over my room. Only ever experienced it once, I reckon it would be good if you could get use to it tho.

Quote:

Coz teh objects are/can be, remote to the viewer.

When you are within the OBE, you are not [necessarily] confined to the proximity of your body.

Can you explain this further, have you got examples?

How can you deny the obvious link I explained tho, its pretty iron clad.

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Yadda

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #19 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 10:14pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:46pm:

Quote:

If you are lucid, 'sleep paralysis', can often be experienced just before the OBE event.

Sleep paralysis is a little unnerving [especially if you have never 'experienced' it before!] if you try to 'act' in your body.

But you can not act in your body, because in that state you experience consciousness [your mind is conscious], but your body is not responsive to your minds 'orders' !

I was able to wake myself up pretty quickly but yes it was actually pretty scary as I had giant spiders crawling all over my room.

Only ever experienced it once, I reckon it would be good if you could get use to it tho.

Someone, or something, WAS TRYING TO SCARE YOU.

Demons do that.

And that, is where our conversation must end, because for 'rational' people like yourself, to talk about the existence of demons is 'silly'.

Demons use the fear and the confusion of people in this reality, to control them.

I know very little about the OBE 'environment'.

My advice to you, is; Don't 'play' with, and don't 'play' in, an environment, that you know very little about.i
Quote:

Quote:

Coz teh objects are/can be, remote to the viewer.

When you are within the OBE, you are not [necessarily] confined to the proximity of your body.

Can you explain this further, have you got examples?

How can you deny the obvious link I explained tho, its pretty iron clad.

DMT may be a drug that can facilitate a form of OBE experience.

If you think that you understand how to induce OBE's using drugs, well, maybe you do.

My advice is to leave well enough alone!

If you think that you definitely want to experience OBE's, then try to induce them naturally, through meditation, and through teh control of your body, through the direct use of your mind.

BUT NOT, through the use of psychotropic drugs.

To do so, is, i would suggest, like a person who DOES NOT know how to swim, carelessly jumping into a very deep and dark pool.

If you 'get into trouble' within an OBE, call out to God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #20 - Oct 31^st, 2012 at 11:23pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 10:14pm:

Quote:

How can you deny the obvious link I explained tho, its pretty iron clad.

DMT may be a drug that can facilitate a form of OBE experience.

If you think that you understand how to induce OBE's using drugs, well, maybe you do.

My advice is to leave well enough alone!

If you think that you definitely want to experience OBE's, then try to induce them naturally, through meditation, and through teh control of your body, through the direct use of your mind.

BUT NOT, through the use of psychotropic drugs.

To do so, is, i would suggest, like a person who DOES NOT know how to swim, carelessly jumping into a very deep and dark pool.

My advice is;

DO NOT USE PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS!

THEY ARE DANGEROUS TO YOUR PSYCHE.

Dictionary;
psyche = = the human soul, mind, or spirit.

Dictionary;
psychotropic = = relating to or denoting drugs that affect a person’s mental state.

The Damage LSD Does / Documentary Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b_X7-JXyEU

Posted at the YouTube link....

Quote:

Excerpts from "The Mind - Benders: Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and the Hallucinogens". This film explores the history of hallucinogenic drugs, and specifically the effects of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). Combining graphics that suggest a hallucinogenic experience, snippets of interviews with users (who explain their reasons for taking the drug) and doctors, and taped sessions of research with volunteers, the film delves into the destructive uses of the drug. Producer: National Archives and Records Administration. Creative Commons license: Public Domain

Chemist Albert Hofmann, working at the Sandoz Corporation pharmaceutical laboratory in Switzerland, first synthesized LSD in 1938. He was conducting research on possible medical applications of various lysergic acid compounds derived from ergot, a fungus that develops on rye grass. Searching for compounds with therapeutic value, Hofmann created more than two dozen ergot-derived synthetic molecules.

LSD is sold on the street in tablets, capsules, and occasionally in liquid form. It is an odorless and colorless substance with a slightly bitter taste that is usually ingested orally. It is often added to absorbent paper, such as blotter paper, and divided into small decorated squares, with each square representing one dose.

CONTROL STATUS

LSD is a Schedule I substance under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule I drugs, which include heroin and MDMA, have a high potential for abuse and serve no legitimate medical purpose. Its two precursors lysergic acid and lysergic acid amide are both in Schedule III of the CSA. The LSD precursors ergotamine and ergonovine are List I chemicals.

STREET TERMS

Acid, blotter acid, window pane, dots, mellow yellow

SHORT-TERM EFFECTS

The short-term effects of LSD are unpredictable. They depend on the amount of the drug taken; the user's personality, mood, and expectations; and the surroundings in which the drug is used. Usually, the user feels the first effects of the drug within 30 to 90 minutes of ingestion. These experiences last for extended periods of time and typically begin to clear after about 12 hours. The physical effects include dilated pupils, higher body temperature, increased heart rate and blood pressure, sweating, loss of appetite, sleeplessness, dry mouth, and tremors. Sensations may seem to "cross over" for the user, giving the feeling of hearing colors and seeing sounds. If taken in a large enough dose, the drug produces delusions and visual hallucinations.

LONG-TERM EFFECTS

LSD users often have flashbacks, during which certain aspects of their LSD experience recur even though they have stopped taking the drug. In addition, LSD users may develop long-lasting psychoses, such as schizophrenia or severe depression. LSD is not considered an addictive drug - that is, it does not produce compulsive drug-seeking behavior as cocaine, heroin, and methamphetamine do. However, LSD users may develop tolerance to the drug, meaning that they must consume progressively larger doses of the drug in order to continue to experience the hallucinogenic effects that they seek.

TRAFFICKING TRENDS

LSD trafficking and abuse have decreased sharply since 2000, and a resurgence does not appear likely in the near term. National-level data regarding LSD availability (such as LSD seizures and LSD-related arrests) show a sharp decrease since 2000. LSD seizures, for example, decreased 100 percent from 2000 through 2005, and LSD-related arrests decreased 84.9 percent from 2000 through 2004 (see 2006 National Drug Threat Assessment Appendix B, Table 4 and Table 5). Demand for LSD also has decreased sharply since 2000, as reflected in national-level prevalence studies. In fact, Monitoring the Future (MTF) and National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) data show that rates of past year use for LSD have decreased significantly for nearly every sampled age group (see 2006 National Drug Threat Assessment Appendix B, Table 1 and Table 2). Production of the drug also appears to be limited--with no reported laboratory seizures in 2004--and controlled by a relatively small number of experienced chemists. Moreover, LSD distribution appears to be very limited in most areas of the country. As such, resurgence in widespread LSD distribution is unlikely in the near term.

USE/USER POPULATION

LSD is abused by teenagers and young adults in connection with raves, nightclubs and concert settings.

Approximately 1.9% of eighth graders, 2.5% of tenth graders, and 3.5% of twelfth graders surveyed as part of the 2005 Monitoring the Future study reported lifetime use of LSD. Approximately 44% of eighth graders, 60.8% of tenth graders, and 69.9% of twelfth graders surveyed in 2005 reported that taking LSD regularly was a "great risk." Additional survey results indicate that 5.6% of college students and 13.4% of young adults reported lifetime use of LSD.

Comment on DMT use, at teh same YT link....

Quote:

Depending on how long ago you did it then I would probably tell you it will go away. DMT has caused me to have week or so long periods of surreal like states. Similar to mushrooms, I've never done LSD but it being a tryptamine, I would venture to say it is similar.

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« Last Edit: Oct 31^st, 2012 at 11:36pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #21 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 4:24am

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 7:46pm:

p.s.

I do still occasionally experience OBE's [dream based].

And i have experienced waking OBE's [but not for several years].

And i do not take 'recreational' or psychotropic drugs.

Wasnt it you that was telling me that the voices were god when i first came here? You FD and north of north ?

Anyway a better explanation for the spiders would be the DTs. Im sure there are other explanations. "Demons" is just a cop out.

SOB

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Yadda

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #22 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 10:46am

"It is my suspicion that the universe is not only stranger than we do imagine but it is stranger than we can imagine."

J.B.S.Haldane - biochemist

"We had thought that we were human beings making a spiritual journey; it may be truer to say that we are spiritual beings making a human journey."

Teilhard de Chardin

The message in the Bible is consistent on the subject of the 'spirit' and the spiritual;

Men should see past the 'easy' [seductive] things of this world, and seek the 'spirit' [and truth].

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:...

John 8:23
....Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:...

John 10:30
I and my Father are one. [...spirit]

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Comment;
A man is 'born of water' at his body's natural birth, when his mothers' waters break.i

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 12:34
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

James 4:4
.....know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Comment;
Jacob & Esau
Those caught up in this world, those caught up by their cares for the things [the 'treasures'] of this world, are either knowingly [care-less-ly], or, unknowingly, selling their spiritual birthright for 'pottage'.
Just as the biblical character Esau did.
Esau's choice revealed a careless disregard for the value of his [precious] birthright, in favor of an immediate, sensual gratification.
The things that Esau valued, were those things which he could have access to right away.
Esau was worldly.
Esau showed himself to be a person who was irreverent, and who had been easily 'corrupted', by the things in this world.
Many of us too, are like Esau, lacking in spiritual discernment, we accentuate what is apparent and what is immediate, and we discount the 'worth' of our spiritual birthright, treating it with contempt, just as Esau did.

Isaac & Ishmael

Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
......
30 ......what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Psalms 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

Matthew 6:33
...seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

Mark 12:28
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness:......

Q.
What is 'the righteousness of God' ?

1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Leviticus 20:7
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Malachi 3:7
...Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts....

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you....

2 Corinthians 6:17
....come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Numbers 16:5
And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

+++

This life, is a 'fixed' game, imo.

This world is [meant to be!!] a distraction and a challenge to us.

And the challenges in this world act upon us all, as a spiritual 'sieve' or net.

Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Is that explanation too simple ???

If you have children, don't you always want the best for them ?

And don't you 'challenge' them [as they are growing up], to help them grow into what they will become ?

It is how we [ourselves] respond to hardships and challenges in this life, that defines who and what we are.

Our actions [our 'good' choices, and our 'poor' choices] every day in this world, [i believe] 'confirm' our morals and 'confirm' who we really are.

God is fully aware that many of us will fail the moral challenges that test us, in this reality.

But, how do we respond, when we, come to that knowledge, of our own error ?

Psalms 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

God desires to redeem us, to the spiritual, to himself, to the light.

Psalms 146:8
The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:

Love God.

+++

And,
Conviction is the art of being certain Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Kytro

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #23 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 10:52am

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:00pm:

Never mind that.
Can quantum physics explain quantum physics? No. It needs the help of a self-perceiving self.
Same with all other science, by the way, even evolution - they are all incapable of explaining themselves. They are all dependent, utterly dependent for their existence, on the human mind, which is their exclusive dwelling place.

The fact this is done by people is self-evident. Theories (that we create) have a level of explanatory power based on how well they match our observations to date, and can be then used to predict future observations which also try to make.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, though.

Can a model predict why we experience "self", in this case some of the quantum physics? From what I have read on the topic there isn't enough credible evidence to back up the position yet.

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #24 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 2:59pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 7:25pm:

Kytro wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 5:03pm:

Are you implying we have no explanations for OBEs?

So, what is 'our' explanation for the OBE ?

Have you ever experienced a waking OBE ?

AN obe whether waking or asleep is dependent upon a time frame. this takes us to the question as to linear time.
(I have asked elvira this very question without response) if you do in fact believe that time is linear, then it is not possible to experience, for example, deja vue. linear time is a faith based delusion, and deluded ppl say "Obe's can either be waking or asleep". when in fact that is limiting the possibilities to their duhr-ness.

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Soren

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #25 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 5:14pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 10:52am:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:00pm:

Never mind that.
Can quantum physics explain quantum physics? No. It needs the help of a self-perceiving self.
Same with all other science, by the way, even evolution - they are all incapable of explaining themselves. They are all dependent, utterly dependent for their existence, on the human mind, which is their exclusive dwelling place.

The fact this is done by people is self-evident. Theories (that we create) have a level of explanatory power based on how well they match our observations to date, and can be then used to predict future observations which also try to make.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, though.

Can a model predict why we experience "self", in this case some of the quantum physics? From what I have read on the topic there isn't enough credible evidence to back up the position yet.

What I am pointing to is the unspoken and unidentified assumption that reason is universal and not a narrowly human attribute.

If reason is only species specific to us, then neither quantum physics nor evolution nor anything else is valid to anything but humans.

But if reason is not species specific - well, you can see where that will take us.

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muso

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #26 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 8:57pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:28pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 9:21pm:

Can quantum physics explain the perception of self??

Surely...

you're joking!

And, who can understand 'quantum physics' ??

Its something to do with the existence and action of neutrinos, isn't it ??? Tongue

You should Google Quantum Probability.

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muso

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #27 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 9:04pm

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 5:14pm:

What I am pointing to is the unspoken and unidentified assumption that reason is universal and not a narrowly human attribute.

If reason is only species specific to us, then neither quantum physics nor evolution nor anything else is valid to anything but humans.

But if reason is not species specific - well, you can see where that will take us.

Reason is not species specific, but it has its limits in chimpanzees, and even certain homo sapiens individuals. You're right in saying that Quantum Science is in the head, as is absolutely everything else we perceive or conceive.

That doesn't make anything less real.
http://phys.org/news/2011-06-chimps-capable-insightful-ability.html

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106894 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #28 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 9:05pm Quantum physics is about the world of the very small - e.g. a single photon or electron - it doesn't apply to massive objects such as person's body.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #29 - Nov 1^st, 2012 at 9:14pm Bobby. wrote on Nov 1^st, 2012 at 9:05pm: Quantum physics is about the world of the very small - e.g. a single photon or electron - it doesn't apply to massive objects such as person's body. You're right... but then again Google Quantum Gravity.
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