Australian Politics Forum - Can quantum physics explain the perception of self

Soren

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #60 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 7:46pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 11:09am:

The Zen master's answer to every question by the pupil is essentially the same as the Irishman's answer to the traveller who was asking the way to Dublin: "If I wanted to go to Dublin, I wouldn't start from here".

At once humorous and also profound.

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 11:09am:

Come to think of it, that is the essence of all answers given to every pupil by the enlightened in any religion - you are not where you should be.

Actually I'd imagine a Zen Master's reply would be more like "You are exactly where you should be. Who are you that you should be anywhere else?"

I think this is very interesting because this is the nub of it.

In the East, you stay inert, you sit under the tree and melt into nothingness.

In the Faustian West, you strive and strive until there is nothing else to strive for.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #61 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:09pm

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 7:46pm:

I think this is very interesting because this is the nub of it.

In the East, you stay inert, you sit under the tree and melt into nothingness.

In the Faustian West, you strive and strive until there is nothing else to strive for.

I'm not sure the attainment of 'not striving' defines the (Zen) Buddhist path.

The second noble truth is translated better as grasping being the cause of suffering... 'Grasping' being better defined as being 'hung up' or maybe 'neurotic'.

'Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water... After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water' does not imply passivity or melting into nothingness.

I believe the goal of Buddhism is to 'know thyself'.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #62 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:11pm Nevertheless, there is all the difference between aiming for nothingness (annihilation) and aiming for redemption (validation).
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #63 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:24pm

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Nevertheless, there is all the difference between aiming for nothingness (annihilation) and aiming for redemption (validation).

Again 'aiming for nothingness' is a western over-simplification of Buddhism's 'end game' which is actually also a redemption... From one's own anger, greed and ignorance of true self.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #64 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:28pm I don't think you can simplify or complicate dissolution into nothing.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #65 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:34pm Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:28pm: I don't think you can simplify or complicate dissolution into nothing. Do you mean nothing or 'no thing'?
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #66 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:41pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:34pm: Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:28pm: I don't think you can simplify or complicate dissolution into nothing. Do you mean nothing or 'no thing'? I mean n o t h i n g .
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #67 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:44pm

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

I don't think you can simplify or complicate dissolution into nothing.

Do you mean nothing or 'no thing'?

I mean n o t h i n g .

I don't think Buddhism is about dissolution into nothing.

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Soren

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #68 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:54pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

I don't think you can simplify or complicate dissolution into nothing.

Do you mean nothing or 'no thing'?

I mean n o t h i n g .

I don't think Buddhism is about dissolution into nothing.

What is nirvana then, if not the cessation of being.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #69 - Nov 4^th, 2012 at 10:32pm

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:54pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

I don't think you can simplify or complicate dissolution into nothing.

Do you mean nothing or 'no thing'?

I mean n o t h i n g .

I don't think Buddhism is about dissolution into nothing.

What is nirvana then, if not the cessation of being.

Now.

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aquascoot

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #70 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 5:27am

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Nevertheless, there is all the difference between aiming for nothingness (annihilation) and aiming for redemption (validation).

ahh,the old nihilistic version of buddhism which says it is a depressing doctrine.

i find little in buddhism that is fairly logical.

aiming ofr annihilation? i would say more recognising the truth of our fate.
a pessimistic doctrine.? no probably a realistic doctrine.

be you devoted to wealth or powe, the best you can hope for is to be the richest man in the cemetary Wink

be you devoted to sex or pleasures, the best you can hope for is the temporary relief of an itch. Wink

buddhism offers the best hope of marrying a philosophy/religion with modern secular consumerism.

it will cause an about face in the consumer society, but that (as perceptions now quite rightly points out in his "for the record") is an inevitable consequence of our limited planet, limited lifespan.

so as paradoxical as it is to embrace reality, it is the end game for sure.

only by believing in a continuation of "the ego' after death can the western christian or muslim ignore the current reality and that is probably just the ego refusing to accept its fate ...annihimation Wink

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self Reply #71 - Nov 12^th, 2012 at 10:15pm Well, the 'ego' is a fairly recent invention so I don't think it's part of any traditional religious doctrine. However, it may very well be part of any or all of the dozens of Californian religions. Anyway, the dead are part of the community. As are the no-yet-born.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #72 - Nov 13^th, 2012 at 8:16pm

Soren wrote on Nov 12^th, 2012 at 10:15pm:

Well, the 'ego' is a fairly recent invention so I don't think it's part of any traditional religious doctrine. However, it may very well be part of any or all of the dozens of Californian religions.

Anyway, the dead are part of the community. As are the no-yet-born.

The concept of 'I' is an ancient Eastern realisation of delusion separateness from the 'cosmos'.

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« Last Edit: Nov 13^th, 2012 at 8:24pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Soren

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #73 - Nov 13^th, 2012 at 10:27pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 13^th, 2012 at 8:16pm:

The concept of 'I' is an ancient Eastern realisation of delusion separateness from the 'cosmos'.

The 'I' and the 'ego' are not the same thing - the 'I' hasn't seen itself in the same, unchanging way across time and continents/cultures, as 'ego'.
The ego - a particular way the 'I' sees itself - is a recent invention.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Can quantum physics explain the perception of self
Reply #74 - Nov 14^th, 2012 at 7:40am

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2012 at 10:27pm:

The 'I' and the 'ego' are not the same thing - the 'I' hasn't seen itself in the same, unchanging way across time and continents/cultures, as 'ego'.
The ego - a particular way the 'I' sees itself - is a recent invention.

Self, ego, I - All synonyms of each other that refer to the existential (and illusory) perception of separateness from the cosmos, either as process or substance.

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