Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 5:47pm:


Here's your problem Baron, you're framing this in religious good (non-muslims) vs evil (muslims) terms like some Yadda clone. Instead try and imagine it as a population of conquered and destitute human beings locked up (literally) in a nazi-Germany style ghetto. They are kept under the thumb by a first world, rich nuclear armed nation with one of the strongest militaries in the world. They bomb this ghetto at will causing countless deaths. Now if you can picture this, imagine how absurd is the notion that the first world military supreme nation is the victim because the ghetto people dare lob a few missiles in desperate retaliation for their plight.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 5:47pm:

your stats are from 2010. stats for 2012 have Israel back in the lead. Besides the point is, Israel is the leading recipient of US aid over 60 or so years of aid giving by the US.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 7:23pm:
So it has nothing at all to do with Israel killing thousands of innocent people and locking millions of people in a Nazi ghetto for almost have a century, removing all their freedom and destroying their lives etc..

Nah it clearly must be about religion.. 

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 7:23pm:


I disagree. The conflict is over land and property, and religion has barely featured until the most recent history. From the very beginning it was a secular conflict - the founders and campaigners for zionism were secularists, and the Palestinian resistance was always secular nationalist. The PLO, headed by fatah is a secularist organisation, just about all the militant groups for most of the history of the conflict have been secularist - and included nationalists, socialists, communists etc. Hamas only emerged as a significant player after the 1987 intifada. Even today, despite the religious distractors, it is still very much a secular conflict when it comes down to it.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 7:23pm:

19.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 7:23pm:


the stats are from 2010. Israel is the leading recipient as of 2012.

freediver wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 7:53pm:


smart alec quips don't change the facts that I pointed out FD. I can only repeat again that the first belligerents were secularists, and remained secularists throughout the conflict until the very recent history.

Militants who happen to be jewish fighting militants who happen to be muslim doesn't in itself make it a religious conflict. The zionists who pushed for a jewish state in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were not fighting for religious motives - indeed most of them were not religious at all. They wanted a jewish homeland for the same reason that any oppressed, stateless and vulnerable people would want a homeland. The holocaust gave this project rapid impetus for obvious reasons. On the arab side, why do you have to be religious to be upset about foreign invaders coming in and stealing your property and claiming it for their own state? Do you think the Aborigines who opposed the British invaders were just religious nutcases?

Here's a quote from then British foreign secretary describing the growing tensions in the 1920s - which gives us a good indication of the conflicts roots:

Quote:

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots

Interesting that he uses the words "zionists" and "arabs", not jews and muslims. But thats just incidental - the non-religious nature of the conflict is plain to see here. The zionists wanted the arab land for themselves, and the arabs increasingly opposed this.

freediver wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2012 at 7:33pm:

Stop supporting terrorism FD, its getting beyond a joke.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 20^th, 2012 at 8:15pm:


What you care about is applying the 'lackey' schtick, not about Pallo kids being used as human shield by Pallo buggers who share your ideological inhumanity in the name of Allah. You will throw everyone under the bus to prove your smacking religious purity. Even other Muslims. Often especially other Muslims,  as long as that will paint the Jews in dark and ghastly hues.

You are a smacking monster like all the other goddam jihadi bastards.

When was the last time Muslims yielded to protests against their presence? When was the last time Muslims yielded conquered territory? Never. It is against your goddam religion to give up anything that has been conquered in the name of Allah.

But here you are, demanding that others NOT be like you.

smacking hypocrites, the lot of you Hiz ul Tahrir salafist bastards.

Yes I do Gandalf. I have a sneaking suspicion that religion plays a major role in the Israel-Palestine conflict. You only have to look at Abu's example to see how.

Many nations went to war against Israel. They did not do so out of some kind of secular or nationalist ties with the Palestinians. They hate the Palestinians as much as the Israelis do and are happy to stand by and watch them suffer if it means another chance to try to push the Jews into the sea. They went to war because they were horrified at the thought of Jews coming to power on land owned by Islam. That is why Abu for example has so little interest in a secular outcome, or even the political outcome. He is interested in a demographic outcome. He wants all the surviving Jews to be sent 'home' - even the ones that were born there.