Australian Politics Forum - illegal Jewish immigration into Israel

freediver

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illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Nov 25^th, 2012 at 12:10pm

Abu has frequently claimed that Jews migrated illegally into Israel and over-ran it. I have challenged him in this portrayal of the events many time and each time he runs away. This time at least he came up with some links with evidence, although his own evidence paints a very different story:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 24^th, 2012 at 10:22am:

The Zionists on the other hand just mass illegally immigrated into someone else's land and then formed militias to murder and expel them. Completely difference situations.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 10:42am:

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 10:09am:

Funny how every time I ask you to back up this claim of illegality you run away.

You are truly living in a little fantasy world aren't you? You're completely insulated from the reality around you, no matter how many times someone shoves it in your face.

Now I've posted a link to this before, so I don't expect this time is going to be any different, but here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Aliyah_Bet:_Illegal_immigration_.281933.E2.8...

Aliyah Bet (Hebrew: 'עלייה ב‎, "Aliyah 'B'" - bet being the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet) was the code name given to illegal immigration by Jews to the British Mandate for Palestine in violation of British White Paper of 1939 restrictions, in the years 1934-1948.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 10:09am:

Again, just because you disagree on Israel's right to exist doesn't change any of the standards that apply. If Israel adopted Islam's standards, they would slaughter all the men and rape the women. That is why you are a hypocrite for criticising them and for making militants out to be innocent civilians.

When you can comprehend the fact that the Zionists mass illegally immigrated into someone else's land and overran it expelling them, then we can continue discussing this, until then it's nothing but folly. No such circumstance exists whereby Muslims did the same thing, so your attempt to draw a parallel is at best, humorous.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 11:59am:

Quote:

You are truly living in a little fantasy world aren't you? You're completely insulated from the reality around you, no matter how many times someone shoves it in your face.

Now I've posted a link to this before, so I don't expect this time is going to be any different, but here it is again:

Abu, according to that article, many immigrated to the area in the context of the holocaust and WWII, many of which did so legally under British law. In total this covered a decade and a half and 110 000 immigrants. Is this what you are complaining about? Prior to this, far more arrived legally under British law. To put it in context, half a million Jews immigrated legally shortly after Israel became a state (between 1948 and 1950). Then, 900 000 Jews fled Arab nations into Israel. Many of these were forcibly expelled by Muslims.

That hardly sounds like your description. The biggest contributors to Jews migrating to Israel were Muslims themselves. Only a small minority migrated illegally, against a legislation you would reject anyway, and this happened in the context of WWII and the holocaust.

These Jews only started expelling the Palestinians after the Palestinians tried to start their own holocaust and lost.

You do run away every single time I challenge you on this. Being able to come up with a link (this time) showing a tiny fraction that actually was illegal does not change that fact.

Quote:

The British clearly controlled both sides

Is this the same British you argue were unable to control the immigration of Jews into the area? Which is it Abu - were the British in effective control or not?

If you follow Abu's link, and scroll up, it lists even more periods of legal migration into Israel.

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abu_rashid

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #1 - Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:39pm

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

Abu has frequently claimed that Jews migrated illegally into Israel and over-ran it.

So how do you suppose Palestine went from a country of 98% Arabs ruled by an Islamic Shari'ah government at the turn of the 20th. century, to a country with 1/3 of Jews and ruled by a Jewish government by 1948? If you have another possible explanation for how this occurred, please share.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

This time at least he came up with some links with evidence

More bovine faeces I see. Fd, can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say stuff like "This time at least he came up with some links"???

In June of this year, you made the same ridiculous argument, and also claimed I "run away", and I posted the EXACT same link for you. You habitually ask for evidence it seems, and then ignore it, discount it, reject it, and then claim I "run away"... debating with you is no different from pouring fresh water into the ocean. I don't run away, I leave you in your pathetic state of denial each time you suffer amnesia and dredge up the same topics you've never been able to debate in previous rounds.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 4^th, 2012 at 9:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 1:52pm:

We 'went over it' which involved you making the claim that the immigration was illegal, then running away...

Here's a few sources for you to begin with:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:E2YjVw-ob4wJ:www.turkishstudies.net/s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_Bet

http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/judentum-aktenlage/migration/EncJud_migrat...

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

If you follow Abu's link, and scroll up, it lists even more periods of legal migration into Israel.

It's illegal to allow immigration into an occupied territory, especially if the intention of that immigration is to displace the populace and replace them with your own or a new population.

Do you honestly believe this kind of despicable action is legal in any sense of the word???

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Big Dave Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2164 Gender:	Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel Reply #2 - Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:44pm The jews own Isreal now abu. You'll just have to get your little mind around this reality and move on.
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freediver

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #3 - Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:44pm

Quote:

So how do you suppose Palestine went from a country of 98% Arabs ruled by an Islamic Shari'ah government

Step 1: The Shariah government was replaced.

Step 2: Legal immigration - according to your own link the majority of the immigration was legal.

Step 3: Palestinians attempt their own holocaust.

Step 4: Palestinians lose.

Step 5: State of Israel established out what was left.

Where did you get the 98% figure from Abu?

Quote:

It's illegal to allow immigration into an occupied territory

Abu, you complained that the migration was illegal under British law. The fact is, the vast majority of it was legal under British law, and when the state of Israel was established, it was legal under Israeli law. A lot of it even happened legally under the "Islamic Shari'ah government". There was no grand conspiracy. It is hardly a revelation that a Jew might want to return to the land of Israel, and that they would do anything in their power to prevent a repeat of the holocaust at the hands of the Palestinians.

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« Last Edit: Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:52pm by freediver »

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abu_rashid

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #4 - Nov 25^th, 2012 at 4:36pm

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

Step 1: The Shariah government was replaced.

Right, so the government was replaced. If Muslims replace the government of Australia, will you consider that legitimate? If they then establish a new government, which expels all Anglos and lets any Muslim immigrate here, will you consider that legal immigration?

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

Step 2: Legal immigration - according to your own link the majority of the immigration was legal.

It was not legal, the people of the land did not recognise it. They rioted to prevent it, as they knew it meant population saturation, and their eventual expulsion. Also under international law, replacing populations in occupied territories is illegal.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

Step 3: Palestinians attempt their own holocaust.

Come on.. all they tried to do was stop someone overrunning their country, hardly a holocaust. If Muslims replace Australia's government and begin expelling Anglos, will you consider it a "holocaust" if Anglo Aussies riot? We already saw what happened in Cronulla, imagine if Muslims actually did something remotely like what was done in Palestine.... Aussies would be rioting all over the place, and I really don't think you'd be here advocating how legitimate it is for the Muslims to expel them.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

Where did you get the 98% figure from Abu?

Well maybe 96%, slightly off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine#Demographics_in_the_Ottom...

Although a League of Nations report did conclude that almost no Jews were there prior to 1880.

In 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine:

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

It is hardly a revelation that a Jew might want to return to the land of Israel

The idea someone can come and take someone else's home because they suspect their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago is just ludicrous. I won't even validate such nonsense with a response.

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« Last Edit: Nov 25^th, 2012 at 5:41pm by abu_rashid »

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freediver

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #5 - Nov 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm

Quote:

Right, so the government was replaced. If Muslims replace the government of Australia, will you consider that legitimate?

You claimed the immigration was illegal, not illegitimate. Stop shifting the goal posts.

Quote:

They rioted to prevent it, as they knew it meant population saturation, and their eventual expulsion.

Even today there are plenty of Arab Muslims in Israel. The only thing that inevitably lead to the expulsion of so many of them was attempting to kill all the Jews.

Quote:

Come on.. all they tried to do was stop someone overrunning their country, hardly a holocaust.

It is if they attempt to do so by killing all the Jews.

Quote:

Well maybe 96%, slightly off.

I can't see where you get that number from either.

Quote:

The idea someone can come and take someone else's home because they suspect their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago is just ludicrous. I won't even validate such nonsense with a response.

They purchased it Abu - completely legal, and it happens all the time, even today. It is only when they Muslims tried to slaughter the Jews that it got ugly.

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abu_rashid

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #6 - Nov 25^th, 2012 at 11:20pm

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm:

Quote:

Right, so the government was replaced. If Muslims replace the government of Australia, will you consider that legitimate?

You claimed the immigration was illegal, not illegitimate. Stop shifting the goal posts.

You're such a waste of time it's not funny.

Right, so the government was replaced. If Muslims replace the government of Australia, will you consider that legal?

Happy? Gonna answer now? Or more petty diversions to follow?

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm:

Even today there are plenty of Arab Muslims in Israel. The only thing that inevitably lead to the expulsion of so many of them was attempting to kill all the Jews.

The vast majority were expelled/fled during the 1947-1948 terror campaigns of the Zionist militias.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm:

It is if they attempt to do so by killing all the Jews.

So again, if Muslim militias begin roaming Australia's countryside, overtaking towns and expelling their inhabitants, killing many in their path, you'd consider Aussies who responded in kind to be committing a holocaust?

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm:

I can't see where you get that number from either.

Are you illiterate? Or did you just not even bother to read the link?

According to Alexander Scholch, Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm:

They purchased it Abu - completely legal, and it happens all the time, even today. It is only when they Muslims tried to slaughter the Jews that it got ugly.

People purchase countries completely legally all the time? Care to name another case? Besides, the vast majority of the land was seized during Plan Dalet, it was not purchased. This is another of the Zionist myths you've purchased.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #7 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 6:58am

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

many immigrated to the area in the context of the holocaust and WWII, many of which did so legally under British law. In total this covered a decade and a half and 110 000 immigrants. Is this what you are complaining about? Prior to this, far more arrived legally under British law.

What a pointless thing to be debating - whether or not the two-faced British occupation force - who were themselves illegitimate - deemed it legal or not is completely irrelevant. The jews were "legally" slaughtered by the nazis - I suppose that makes it ok does it?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #8 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 8:36am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 6:58am:

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

many immigrated to the area in the context of the holocaust and WWII, many of which did so legally under British law. In total this covered a decade and a half and 110 000 immigrants. Is this what you are complaining about? Prior to this, far more arrived legally under British law.

What a pointless thing to be debating - whether or not the two-faced British occupation force - who were themselves illegitimate - deemed it legal or not is completely irrelevant. The jews were "legally" slaughtered by the nazis - I suppose that makes it ok does it?

Obviously Abu thinks it is important - hence my (as yet unanswered) question about whether this is what Abu was complaining about. It seems he is upset that Palestine played a role in allowing Jews to break the law by avoiding the gas chambers.

Quote:

Right, so the government was replaced. If Muslims replace the government of Australia, will you consider that legal?

Our government gets replaced every few years Abu. This is perfectly legal. I have no doubt that one day we will even elect a Muslim, though I am sure you would not consider them a proper Muslim. The Americans just elected a black man from a Muslim country as president. Unlike Muslims, we do not insist on mass slaughters every time there is a change in leadership.

Quote:

So again, if Muslim militias begin roaming Australia's countryside, overtaking towns and expelling their inhabitants, killing many in their path, you'd consider Aussies who responded in kind to be committing a holocaust?

Sorry I keep forgetting, it is all the non-Muslims fault. Muslims would never do anything like that. They were happily minding their own business when Jewish refugees started slaughtering them. This is typical behaviour for Jews.

Quote:

Are you illiterate? Or did you just not even bother to read the link?

I wasted my time reading the text you copied and pasted. You should have told me that you copied the irrelevant bit and that I had to go looking for the relevant info.

BTW, your original claim may well have been correct - that 98% of them were Arabs. That is, if you will allow a Jew to also be an Arab.

Quote:

People purchase countries completely legally all the time?

That is not what I said Abu. I was merely pointing out that you description of what happened is completely wrong - again. Like I said, it was only when the Palestinians attempted their own holocaust that things got ugly.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #9 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 11:20am

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 8:36am:

Sorry I keep forgetting, it is all the non-Muslims fault. Muslims would never do anything like that. They were happily minding their own business when Jewish refugees started slaughtering them. This is typical behaviour for Jews.

"muslims would never do anything like that" - reads "muslims ALWAYS do things like that" - ergo, muslims are inherently evil - ergo the whole conflict is caused by islam and muslims.

This is the simplistic crap that stymies any chance of a rational discussion - and yes I acknowledge that BOTH sides are equally as guilty.

At its core though, and as I attempted to explain to you in the other thread (which you ignored), this is not a conflict of religion, or even ideology - but rather of land security and basic human rights.

This is not a story about jewish refugees fleeing to Palestine merely to seek refuge in the country. This is about zionism - the political movement to take the whole of Palestine for a jewish state. This is very important to understand: the jewish immigration that occured in the late 19th an early 20th century was NOT a benign movement of people to happily coexist with the natives - it was an aggressive plan to stake claim to the entire region for a jewish state - and by inference, to expel the existing arab population. That is in fact what started to happen right before the arab league invaded.

The writing on the wall was certainly seen by the British, who recognised the legitimate greivances of the arab locals in the face of clear provocation by the zionists. As far back as 1920 there was an arab riot, for which a British inquiry put the blame on the zionists. Basically if a flood of immigrants start entering your country and start boasting that they are going to claim it as their own - with no chance of coexistence, I don't imagine many people would react too kindly to that.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #10 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 1:05pm

Quote:

This is the simplistic crap that stymies any chance of a rational discussion

Gandalf, perhaps you have not noticed, but Abu frequently makes claims such as this:

Quote:

The Zionists on the other hand just mass illegally immigrated into someone else's land and then formed militias to murder and expel them. Completely difference situations.

I have pointed out to him plenty of times that he is wrong about this. It is a bit rich for you to accuse me of making simplistic generalisations, when this requires you to put words in my mouth rather than responding to something I actually said.

Quote:

At its core though, and as I attempted to explain to you in the other thread (which you ignored)

We had a fairly lengthy discussion about it in the other thread.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #11 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 3:04pm

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 1:05pm:

Gandalf, perhaps you have not noticed, but Abu frequently makes claims such as this:

Which is why I issued the qualifier "and yes I acknowledge that BOTH sides are equally as guilty." - in the very same sentence.

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 1:05pm:

It is a bit rich for you to accuse me of making simplistic generalisations

Bit rich? What do you call these sort of statements then?:

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 8:36am:

Unlike Muslims, we do not insist on mass slaughters every time there is a change in leadership

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 8:36am:

it was only when the Palestinians attempted their own holocaust that things got ugly.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm:

The only thing that inevitably lead to the expulsion of so many of them was attempting to kill all the Jews.

The last one is completely baseless, and is refuted by everything I have been arguing in this thread and the other. You continue to ignore the points I raise, and just keep rehashing this baseless myth over and over.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, the zionist campaign, which began in earnest in the late 19th century, called for all territory west of the Jordan to be annexed for a jewish state. The flood of immigration that occurred in the early 20th century must be viewed in this context - and indeed the zionists were loud and clear in voicing their intentions that there was no room for the native arab inhabitants when their state - promised to them in their minds by the Balfour declaration - was to be created.

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 1:05pm:

We had a fairly lengthy discussion about it in the other thread.

You initially "addressed" my arguments with a one line quip. I then gave a detailed analysis of the historical context (once again addressing your simplistic theme that the whole conflict all comes down to the muslims being bloodthirsty zealots), to which you ignored completely - preferring to continue with your spamming contest with Abu.

But hey, whatever rocks your boat. If you want to just spam, then go ahead and spam. But don't get all indignant when I point out to you that you are in fact just spamming.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #12 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 3:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 6:58am:

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

many immigrated to the area in the context of the holocaust and WWII, many of which did so legally under British law. In total this covered a decade and a half and 110 000 immigrants. Is this what you are complaining about? Prior to this, far more arrived legally under British law.

What a pointless thing to be debating - whether or not the two-faced British occupation force - who were themselves illegitimate - deemed it legal or not is completely irrelevant. The jews were "legally" slaughtered by the nazis - I suppose that makes it ok does it?

In what way was the British control of Palestine 'illegitimate'???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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polite_gandalf

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #13 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 3:27pm

what? I can't believe you're even asking that. The British Mandate was a shameless imperialist occupation - the arabs mere pawns in a game between European imperialist powers.

The arabs helped the British overthrow the Ottoman imperialists, they should have been awarded with self-rule. Instead they merely passed from one occupier to another.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #14 - Nov 26^th, 2012 at 3:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 3:27pm:

what? I can't believe you're even asking that. The British Mandate was a shameless imperialist occupation - the arabs mere pawns in a game between European imperialist powers.

The arabs helped the British overthrow the Ottoman imperialists, they should have been awarded with self-rule. Instead they merely passed from one occupier to another.

But they were offered self-rule, with several countries created (Jordan, Lebanon and Syria for example) but the Arab State in Palestine rejected out of hand by the Arab League...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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