Australian Politics Forum - Gandalf's views on Islam

Karnal

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #30 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 2:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 2:43pm:

What you quoted is not contraditory, but it is true that enforcement of sharia law seems to contradict the quranic command that there be no compulsion in religion. But then again, the punishments are only required where the social order of the islamic society is put at risk (eg adultery and alcohol). Like I said, no sharia system has a big man with a stick standing over you forcing you to pray, or bundling you into a plane to perform the haj.

I guess that would make the Taliban unIslamic. What do you think?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #31 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 3:49pm

^ not an unreasonable assumption. There were certainly a lot of unislamic aspects to their rule - such as banning women from going to school and enforcing the burqa. That said, the taliban is a bad example given the extraordinary circumstances at the time. They took over a bankrupt nation that was in complete anarchy. And throughout their rule they were at constant war. I've heard it stated that 90% of government revenue went towards the war effort. Little wonder then that they were so beholden to the cash-strapped Saudi militants who invited themselves in. In fact the notorious female education thing was an economic decision too - the taliban insisted on segregated education, and while the boys got the existing schools, they literally had no money to build any girl schools. And actually its a myth that girl schools were banned - since there were quite a few home-run schools for girls that were allowed.

The dire economic situation led to some shrewd, if pretty morally dubious actions - most notably with the poppies - allow their cultivation until there was a record bumper crop, then immediately ban it, and voila - your sitting on record harvest while the price of poppies goes through the roof.

So yes the taliban were/are extreme, but they were also in a pretty desperate situation economically - and thus some of their extreme measures can be attributed to that. Less excusable is the salafists who control mega rich Saudi Arabia, and do such lovely things as block girls climbing out of a burning dormitory because they are inappropriately dressed - and watch them burn to death.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96377	Re: Gandalf's views on Islam Reply #32 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 4:13pm Just out of interest, do you know if they reintroduced stonings?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's views on Islam Reply #33 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:19pm According to wikipedia and the kite runner they did. Have you seen that movie? Its a real tear jerker.
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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #34 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm

Quote:

Fine. Replace "predominantly muslim" to "majority muslim" if it makes you feel better. I'm sure it makes a massive amount of difference.

The reason I keep asking is because I could never get any of the other Muslims to talk about how they ought to change the system of government to an Islamic one. The question was apparently way too 'loaded' for them. You appeared to say that the majority becoming Muslim is some kind of criteria, but it never happened that way in the past, and Islam does not take much interest in democracy.

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Nontheless, they do have nearly 50% of the population that is non-muslim, so they have to weigh that in.

Apparently they achieved 100% Muslims in the Arabian peninsula by voluntary conversion and forced migration.

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what? You seem to be under the misapprehension that I advocated compulsory zakat somewhere.

It was in the context of legislation. Is zakat traditionally voluntary?

Quote:

I did say that islamic societies should "institutionalise" the system - not making it compulsory, but using state resources to promote, standardise, streamline etc the process.

That sounds a bit naive to me. And getting the government involved is hardly going to encourage people to give voluntarily.

Quote:

What you quoted is not contraditory, but it is true that enforcement of sharia law seems to contradict the quranic command that there be no compulsion in religion.

You appear to be contradicting yourself again.

Quote:

But then again, the punishments are only required where the social order of the islamic society is put at risk (eg adultery and alcohol).

That doesn't make sense, as the committing of any crimes could be taken as putting society at risk. Are you suggesting there are some scenarios in which the law is ignored because everyone is getting along nicely?

Quote:

Like I said, no sharia system has a big man with a stick standing over you forcing you to pray, or bundling you into a plane to perform the haj.

But military service is comulsory, isn't it? Unless you can buy your way out?

Quote:

^ not an unreasonable assumption. There were certainly a lot of unislamic aspects to their rule - such as banning women from going to school and enforcing the burqa.

Falah described them as the last true Islamic government on earth. Abu disagreed with him. I guess there really is a range of opinions among Muslims.

Quote:

That said, the taliban is a bad example given the extraordinary circumstances at the time. They took over a bankrupt nation that was in complete anarchy. And throughout their rule they were at constant war. I've heard it stated that 90% of government revenue went towards the war effort.

There was a long period without war. The Americans ignored their declaration of war for as long as possible (ie until 9/11).

Quote:

The dire economic situation led to some shrewd, if pretty morally dubious actions - most notably with the poppies - allow their cultivation until there was a record bumper crop, then immediately ban it, and voila - your sitting on record harvest while the price of poppies goes through the roof.

It only goes through the roof if you actually stop selling it. You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

So yes the taliban were/are extreme, but they were also in a pretty desperate situation economically - and thus some of their extreme measures can be attributed to that.

Whats the word for constantly excusing the actions of other Muslims?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #35 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 7:46pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

You appeared to say that the majority becoming Muslim is some kind of criteria

Isn't that logical? Like I said, when a population becomes majority muslim, then by definition it becomes an 'islamic society', and it surely follows that an islamic system should then be implemented.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

but it never happened that way in the past

Are you sure? You don't think Iran was majority muslim when it overthrew the shah and implemented an islamic theocracy? Really?? What about Afghanistan when the taliban moved in and implemented their islamic regime? What were the Afghans then? Budhist? Scientologists? Jedi?

...Somalia, Maldives, Chechnya, Gaza, the list is endless.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

Islam does not take much interest in democracy

What exactly do you mean by democracy? If its simply allowing to vote for government, then islam very much has it.

from wikipedia:
Quote:

In theory, the organization of a caliphate should be a constitutional republic[1] (the Constitution being the Constitution of Medina), which means that the head of state, the Caliph, and other officials are representatives of the people and of Islam and must govern according to constitutional and religious law, or Sharia. In its early days, the first caliphate resembled elements of direct democracy (see shura) and an elective monarchy.[2]

...Sunni Islam stipulates that the head of state, the caliph, should be elected by Shura – elected by Muslims or their representatives

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

That doesn't make sense, as the committing of any crimes could be taken as putting society at risk. Are you suggesting there are some scenarios in which the law is ignored because everyone is getting along nicely?

Again you are confused, and this stems from your misunderstanding about what sharia is. Sharia is basically everything a muslim is obligated to do - from prayer, to fasting, to abstaining from alcohol, to fidelity. What you need to get it through your head is that for the vast majority of these obligations, there is no islamically prescribed earthly law or punishment to force muslims to perform them. Thus they are not "crimes" as you would understand the concept. My point, again, is that for the few acts that have a prescribed earthly punishment, these are in place because these acts have a direct detrimental effect on society - adultery ruins the family, and alcohol affects social order.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

Falah described them as the last true Islamic government on earth. Abu disagreed with him. I guess there really is a range of opinions among Muslims.

Good to see you're finally understanding that.

Now if only you would acknowledge these ranges in your wiki.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

There was a long period without war. The Americans ignored their declaration of war for as long as possible (ie until 9/11).

No, I'm not talking about the war with the US. The taliban was basically finished as soon as 9/11 happened. But during their entire rule - from 1994 to 2001, they were at war with the so called 'northern alliance' - General Dostum and Massoud, and all the rest of them.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

It only goes through the roof if you actually stop selling it. You can't have it both ways.

No, markets anticipate. The taliban were shrewd because they made the crackdown on poppies very overtly to the world. This had the intended effect - scared the market, and prices skyrocketed in response. The taliban then could sell the final harvest at record prices.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

Whats the word for constantly excusing the actions of other Muslims?

Selective aren't we? Funny you made no mention of my scathing attack on the salafists who control Saudi Arabia.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #36 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 9:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 2:43pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 12:27pm:

Can you explain how imposing Shariah law on people is about fundamental human rights?

No I can't because its not.

Nowhere in my argument have I talked about the need to impose anything.

As I've said all along, my ideal shariah society, is one which facilitates and promotes personal islamic duties - not enforces them. Let there be no compulsion in religion - so says the quran, which I've mentioned 3 times now I believe.

If gandalf is correct [above] then it is clear that gandalf knows much more about ISLAMIC jurisprudence, than either common-all ISLAMIC clerics, and even, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia.

Let there be no compulsion in religion - so says the quran ?????

Quote:

Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-p...

Quote:

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh.
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained.....THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.
...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun: "In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-111111225...

Google;
"Let there be no compulsion in religion" abrogated

Somehow, it must be the case, that it is either gandalf,
OR,
it is moslem clerics, ....that are misunderstanding ISLAM.

I wonder who it is ?

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IMO, it is clear that gandalf is either an ignorant [a NOT-rightly-guided] moslem,
OR,
gandalf is a moslem who is intentionally misrepresenting what ISLAM is, to Australian 'unbelievers' on this forum.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #37 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 9:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 2:43pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 12:27pm:

Can you explain how imposing Shariah law on people is about fundamental human rights?

No I can't because its not.

Nowhere in my argument have I talked about the need to impose anything.

As I've said all along, my ideal shariah society, is one which facilitates and promotes personal islamic duties - not enforces them. Let there be no compulsion in religion - so says the quran, which I've mentioned 3 times now I believe.

Let there be no compulsion in religion - so says the quran
.....and gandalf

Right ???

AND, polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 2:43pm:

What you quoted is not contraditory, but it is true that enforcement of sharia law seems to contradict the quranic command that there be no compulsion in religion. But then again, the punishments are only required where the social order of the islamic society is put at risk (eg adultery and alcohol). Like I said, no sharia system has a big man with a stick standing over you forcing you to pray, or bundling you into a plane to perform the haj.

Let there be no compulsion in religion - so says the quran
.....and gandalf

Right ???i
ISLAMIC texts, justify, AND, MAKE LAWFUL, the killing of people who 'disrespect' ISLAM, by neglecting their daily prayers.......

FROM ISLAMIC LAW

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

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But we on OzPol can be certain that gandalf knows much more about ISLAMIC jurisprudence, than either common-all ISLAMIC clerics, and even, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia.
/sarc off

My only question is;
If gandalf knows so much about ISLAMIC jurisprudence, then why doesn't he travel to Saudi Arabia, to debate with the clerics and set them right, about what is permitted by ISLAM ?

And Abu, and falah too!

+++

AGAIN, imo, it is clear that gandalf is either an ignorant [i.e. he is NOT a rightly-guided] moslem,
OR,
gandalf is a moslem who is intentionally misrepresenting what ISLAM is, to Australian 'unbelievers' on this forum.

Which is it gandalf ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #38 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 10:27pm

Quote:

What you quoted is not contraditory, but it is true that enforcement of sharia law seems to contradict the quranic command that there be no compulsion in religion.

You missed this one Gandalf. Can you explain why the apparent contradiction is not actually a contradiction? Yadda appears to be onto this also.

Quote:

Isn't that logical?

Obviously it is logical. I was asking if it was Islamic.

Quote:

Like I said, when a population becomes majority muslim, then by definition it becomes an 'islamic society'

Whose definition? Abu went to a lot of effort to reject this concept.

Quote:

and it surely follows that an islamic system should then be implemented.

I wouldn't go that far. But it depends on what you mean by an Islamic system. I still haven't got my head around all these apparent contradictions that are not actually contradictions.

Quote:

Are you sure? You don't think Iran was majority muslim when it overthrew the shah and implemented an islamic theocracy?

Sorry I am so used to Muslims complaining that these are not proper Islamic states. I don't think the Iranians woke up one morning and realised they were a majority muslim nation so they now had a licence according to Islam to set up an Islamic state.

Quote:

What exactly do you mean by democracy? If its simply allowing to vote for government, then islam very much has it.

If the outcome is predetermined then it is not democracy. Democracy means rule by majority.

Quote:

Funny you made no mention of my scathing attack on the salafists who control Saudi Arabia.

Abu was also very critical of them. He did not consider them to be Muslims.

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Yadda

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #39 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 11:25pm

Is the reason that gandalf and Abu, and falah would be unwilling to travel to Saudi Arabia [for the purpose, to try to debate with ISLAMIC clerics in Saudi Arabia, about the need for moslems to embrace religious tolerance [even among differing moslem sects!]], because gandalf and Abu, and falah are all well aware that ISLAMIC doctrine does not respect the call that is made in Koran 2:256, for religious tolerance ???

And, because gandalf and Abu, and falah know that the swords in Saudi Arabia are very sharp, and, because they all want their torso's to remain attached to their heads ?

OR, is the reason why gandalf and Abu, and falah would not entertain the idea OF TRYING TO REASON WITH OTHER MOSLEMS, because they understand all too well, that the call for religious tolerance in Koran 2:256, is an insincere 'religious' abstraction, which is used by moslems, to INTENTIONALLY misrepresent ISLAM to 'unbelievers' ???

"Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from Error
: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

Koran 2.256

It is not a nice fate, that is waiting for the deceivers.

For those who are impersonating believers...

"Then, on the Day of Judgment,.....Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily [God] knoweth all that ye did;"
Koran 16.27

+++

"Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229682951/0#0
Quote:

Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar, YOU are the unbeliever.

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God.

You muslims insist that ONLY muslims are the 'properly guided'.

Is he who is on a path of lies and deception, 'properly guided'??

AN EXPLANATION OF THE WORD 'KUFFAR'...

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #40 - Jan 18^th, 2013 at 1:38pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 11:25pm:

Is the reason that gandalf and Abu, and falah would be unwilling to travel to Saudi Arabia [for the purpose, to try to debate with ISLAMIC clerics in Saudi Arabia, about the need for moslems to embrace religious tolerance [even among differing moslem sects!]], because gandalf and Abu, and falah are all well aware that ISLAMIC doctrine does not respect the call that is made in Koran 2:256, for religious tolerance ???

Is it true that Yadda would be unwilling to travel to Sydney [for the purpose, to try to debate with Christian leaders like Cardinal Pell and Peter Jensen in Sydney, about the need for Christians to embrace religious intolerance [even among differing Christian denominations!]], because Yadda is all aware that his view does not respect the call that is made in Matthew 23?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49366 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's views on Islam Reply #41 - Jan 18^th, 2013 at 9:16pm I think Malik left after he found out what Abu's views on Shites are - ie that they are OK so long as they keep their mouth shut, otherwise they risk the death penalty. That is what 'disrespect' means in Islam.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #42 - Jan 18^th, 2013 at 9:47pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 10:27pm:

You missed this one Gandalf. Can you explain why the apparent contradiction is not actually a contradiction? Yadda appears to be onto this also.

I'm sorry, remind me again what is contradictory? I've lost track amongst all the inane banter.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 10:27pm:

Whose definition? Abu went to a lot of effort to reject this concept.

Its not a concept, its a simple definition. Would you say a nation of muslims is a muslim society? Obviously. So why not call it an "islamic" society? Same thing.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 10:27pm:

I don't think the Iranians woke up one morning and realised they were a majority muslim nation so they now had a licence according to Islam to set up an Islamic state.

I think thats pretty much exactly what happened - figuratively speaking. Replace "one morning" with the period of mass protests between 1977 to 1979, when the Iranians "realised" that that as a large muslim nation that was the cultural centre of world shiism, it was a disgrace to be a western puppet, and should be an islamic nation.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 10:27pm:

If the outcome is predetermined then it is not democracy. Democracy means rule by majority.

elections are not predetermined - unless its one that involves Hamid Karzai. All that is 'predetermined' is that the nation will remain islamic. Yet, you say yourself that democracy is 'rule by majority' - so when the majority is muslim, its reasonable to assume that the will of that majority is to keep the islamic nature of the state regardless of the election outcome.

Yadda wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 9:30pm:

FROM ISLAMIC LAW

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan.

Yadda, do you understand there are categories of hadith from those that are of soundest reliability (sahih), to those that are of least reliability (da'if)? You preface this hadith with a statement that it is "islamic law" - yet you have no idea about the chain of narration of this hadith and how much worth it is given by islamic scholars in terms of 'islamic law' do you? Can you actually quote a single islamic scholar quoting this hadith to argue that failure to perform prayer, haj or fasting justifies killing?

By far the most important source of islamic law remains the quran, and my claim is not just backed up by 2:256. You argue (ignorantly) that the prophet order compulsion in religion, well what does the quran itself say about the prophet?

Quote:

“Therefore, do thou give admonition, for thou art one to admonish. Thou art not one to manage (people’s) affairs.” (Al-Gashiya, 88/21-22).“If then they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (The Message).” (Al-Shura, 42/48).

Quote:

“Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: But he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.” (Al-Zumar, 39/41).

Quote:

“The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message)” (Al-Nur, 24/54).

“Say: “O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! Those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss; And I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.” (Yunus, 10/108).

http://www.lastprophet.info/freedom-of-faith-in-the-practice-of-prophet-muhammad

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49366 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's views on Islam Reply #43 - Jan 18^th, 2013 at 9:54pm Quote: I'm sorry, remind me again what is contradictory? I've lost track amongst all the inane banter. Shariah law and the 'no compulsion in religion' thing.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's views on Islam Reply #44 - Jan 18^th, 2013 at 10:27pm I've spoke at length about that. If there's something about my detailed explanation that you still don't understand please specify.
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