polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 19
th, 2013 at 5:10pm:
Well thats easy FD, see if you bothered taking note of what I said, you would see that I never actually conceded that enforcement of sharia is necessarily part of islamic law. It is something I am still uncertain on - and in fact its the contradiction with specific quranic verses that leads me to doubt that it is. The quran is more interested in personal/spiritual benefits, rather than societal benefits (though actually the personal benefits lead to societal benefits).
Having said that, man made laws and punishments are absolutely essential for the maintenance of social order and stability - irrespective of what any religion says about it.
No one would ever say that murder shouldn't be a punishable offense
- but you don't see westerners objecting to it just because having a punishment for it is consistent with christian doctrine.
Likewise, there are good reasons from a social harmony perspective for punishing adultery and alcohol consumption that are quite separate to it being forbidden by the quran. And in fact many non-islamic societies in the past had prohibitions on these acts.
gandalf,
Almost all jurisdictions [both religious and secular] condemn murder.
But not all jurisdictions define what 'murder' is, in the same way.ISLAMIC law defines the unlawful killing of
a moslem [almost exclusively, only a moslem] as murder.
Many secular jurisdictions make no such 'distinction'.
Almost all non-moslem jurisdictions treat the unlawful killing of
any person as murder.
e.g.
gandalf,
I, Yadda, am regarded as an infidel,
and i oppose the influence of ISLAM being spread in Australia.
You gandalf claim to be a moslem.
SCENARIO #1,
If Yadda cut gandalf's throat [here in Australia] for whatever reason, i would rightly be charged with murder.
SCENARIO #2,
If gandalf, knowing that Yadda was an infidel who opposed Allah's perfect religion, cut Yadda's throat within a devout Sharia jurisdiction [e.g. Yemen], gandalf would be praised for
righteously killing [
NOT MURDERING] an infidel who resisted ISLAM/Allah's perfect religion.
There is no respect for a 'Golden Rule', in ISLAM.
Quote:AN ETHICAL BASIS FOR WAR
by Bill Warner (Jan 2007)
"......Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and most atheists agree that lying, theft, murder, destroying the sanctity of family, and lusting after other people’s property is bad behavior.
Upon reflection, all of these prohibitions prevent harm to others. We don’t harm others and we don’t want to be harmed. We all want to be treated well and this is the best way to treat others, hence the Golden Rule:
Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.
The Golden Rule is an ethic of unity. Everyone is treated the same. One ethical system for all people.
This has been said in many ways in many religions and cultures. But there is a religion and culture that does not agree with these ethics—Islam.
......What are Islamic ethics and where do we find them?
.....A Muslim should be a brother to other Muslims (not the rest of humanity). A Muslim should not kill another Muslim. A Muslim may lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
So for Islam the ethical statements are:
Do not kill another Muslim.
Do not steal from another Muslim.
Do not deceive another Muslim.
Islam divides the entire world into Islam and nonbelievers and has two sets of ethics, one for Islam and another for the rest. The Golden Rule has the equality of all humanity as its basis. It is not: Do unto some people, as you would have them do unto you, but do unto all people as you would have them do unto you.
Islam denies the universality of the Golden Rule because Islam starts with the division of the entire world, all humanity, into two different groups—Islamic and non-Islamic. Every aspect of Islamic ethics is based upon this separation. Having two distinct groups leads to two different ethical codes. Said another way, Islam has dualistic ethics.
Deceit, violence and force are optional actions against the unbelievers. Believers are to be treated as brothers and sisters. Islam’s ethics are based upon:
Good is whatever advances Islam.
Evil is whatever resists Islam.
......the whole world must submit to Islam; nonbelievers are the enemy simply because they are not Muslims. To achieve this dominance, Islam may use terror and violence. It may use psychological warfare, fear, and theft. It may take the spoils of war from non-Muslims. Violence and terror are made sacred by the Koran. Peace comes only with submission to Islam.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=5208&sec_id=5208"Peace LAWLESSNESS comes with submission to Islam"
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