Australian Politics Forum - Gandalf's views on Islam

polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #60 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 10:37am

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 9:32am:

You never actually conceded that it is a contradiction either. Hence the question.

What do you mean? I conceded the claim that islamic law is enforceable is a contradiction to the specific quranic commands. Whether or not those claims are a correct interpretation of islamic law is the question. I suspect they are not.

Quote:

Are there any other verses besides the 'no compulsion in religion' one that contradict enforcement of Shariah law?

Already cited in reply#42

Quote:

Obviously laws are encessary[sic] for society to function. I am not sure how the examples you gave are relevant. Do you think banning alcohol contradicts the 'no compulsion in religion' thing?

Put it this way. Islamic law is for the benefit of the individual and their personal relationship with God. The quran points out very clearly that adherence to islamic law must come from the heart, and there is absolutely no point forcing people to follow islam - as it would be insincere.

Quite apart from that, society has to abide by a set of man-made laws to ensure the stability and social harmony of society. Inevitably there will be some overlap between what the societies' religion says is forbidden, and what the society deems as damaging to society. But it is the latter alone that is the reason for the law, not the former. To put it in libertarian terms, everyone should be free, unless it adversely affects other people. In islam, religion is completely a freedom of choice thing, unless it harms others. Thus muslims in an islamic society have freedom to choose the way they practice (or don't practice) their religion - until it adversely affects society - eg adultery, alcoholism.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #61 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 11:09am

Quote:

Already cited in reply#42

I don't see it. All I see is you asking me to tell you what the contradictions are.

Do you think banning alcohol contradicts the 'no compulsion in religion' thing?

I did notice this though:

Quote:

elections are not predetermined - unless its one that involves Hamid Karzai. All that is 'predetermined' is that the nation will remain islamic. Yet, you say yourself that democracy is 'rule by majority' - so when the majority is muslim, its reasonable to assume that the will of that majority is to keep the islamic nature of the state regardless of the election outcome.

Going by the explanation I have received from every other Muslim, the outcome is predetermined. Using your example of Iran, candidates must first be vetted for appropriate Islamicness. That means a predetermined outcome. That is undemocratic. You cannot get around this by claiming that because the majority is Muslim the outcome would have been the same, or it is appropriate to restrict the outcomes from the beginning. To give a demonstration, this is no different to Abu claiming that because people like you are Muslims it is entirely appropriate to impose the death penalty for apostasy on you, on the grounds that any opposition from you is merely an incorrect interpretation of Islam.

There is no need to edit quotes with 'sic'. I hope you are not retyping them.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #62 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 11:59am

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 11:09am:

I don't see it. All I see is you asking me to tell you what the contradictions are.

lol, ok FD, here you go - the unseen quranic quotes in post#42:
Quote:

Quote:
“Therefore, do thou give admonition, for thou art one to admonish. Thou art not one to manage (people’s) affairs.” (Al-Gashiya, 88/21-22).“If then they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (The Message).” (Al-Shura, 42/48).

Quote:
“Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: But he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.” (Al-Zumar, 39/41).

Quote:
“The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message)” (Al-Nur, 24/54).

“Say: “O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! Those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss; And I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.” (Yunus, 10/108).

http://www.lastprophet.info/freedom-of-faith-in-the-practice-of-prophet-muhammad

Quote:

Do you think banning alcohol contradicts the 'no compulsion in religion' thing?

can you please for one minute read and comprehend what I say - and what I've been saying over and over many times?

Alcohol fits into that category of behaviour that harms other innocent people besides the offender, and therefore harms society. Therefore any man-made prohibition on alcohol should be motivated by the desire to preserve the cohesion and harmony in society. Is it a coincidence that the only sharia laws that have a man-made punishment in some islamic societies are those that have a direct adverse impact on society? No. Thats why no muslim society punishes people for not praying or performing the hajj.

Quote:

Going by the explanation I have received from every other Muslim, the outcome is predetermined. Using your example of Iran, candidates must first be vetted for appropriate Islamicness. That means a predetermined outcome. That is undemocratic. You cannot get around this by claiming that because the majority is Muslim the outcome would have been the same, or it is appropriate to restrict the outcomes from the beginning.

Ah, but you see you make a completely flawed assumption here.

No candidate is "vetted" before they stand in the model I'm talking about. If you have an islamic society from which say 3 candidates stand for a run-off election to be their leader. Candidate A and B are islamists, and candidate C is anti-islamist. In the run-off election, candidate C is eliminated because most members of society are islamists who have no wish to vote for an anti-islamist candidate. The election proper, is then a choice between two islamists. All entirely democratic, and nothing is pre-determined.

Also Iran is not a model of islamic democracy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #63 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 11:59am:

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 11:09am:

I don't see it. All I see is you asking me to tell you what the contradictions are.

lol, ok FD, here you go - the unseen quranic quotes in post#42:
Quote:

Quote:
“Therefore, do thou give admonition, for thou art one to admonish. Thou art not one to manage (people’s) affairs.” (Al-Gashiya, 88/21-22).“If then they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (The Message).” (Al-Shura, 42/48).

Quote:
“Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: But he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.” (Al-Zumar, 39/41).

Quote:
“The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message)” (Al-Nur, 24/54).

“Say: “O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! Those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss; And I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.” (Yunus, 10/108).

http://www.lastprophet.info/freedom-of-faith-in-the-practice-of-prophet-muhammad

Quote:

Do you think banning alcohol contradicts the 'no compulsion in religion' thing?

can you please for one minute read and comprehend what I say - and what I've been saying over and over many times?

Alcohol fits into that category of behaviour that harms other innocent people besides the offender, and therefore harms society. Therefore any man-made prohibition on alcohol should be motivated by the desire to preserve the cohesion and harmony in society. Is it a coincidence that the only sharia laws that have a man-made punishment in some islamic societies are those that have a direct adverse impact on society? No. Thats why no muslim society punishes people for not praying or performing the hajj.

Quote:

Going by the explanation I have received from every other Muslim, the outcome is predetermined. Using your example of Iran, candidates must first be vetted for appropriate Islamicness. That means a predetermined outcome. That is undemocratic. You cannot get around this by claiming that because the majority is Muslim the outcome would have been the same, or it is appropriate to restrict the outcomes from the beginning.

Ah, but you see you make a completely flawed assumption here.

No candidate is "vetted" before they stand in the model I'm talking about. If you have an islamic society from which say 3 candidates stand for a run-off election to be their leader. Candidate A and B are islamists, and candidate C is anti-islamist. In the run-off election, candidate C is eliminated because most members of society are islamists who have no wish to vote for an anti-islamist candidate. The election proper, is then a choice between two islamists. All entirely democratic, and nothing is pre-determined.

Also Iran is not a model of islamic democracy.

gandalf,

Your arguments [above] are riddled with error.

You are a moslem, and your arguments [above] are riddled with error and with a denial of what is true.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's views on Islam Reply #64 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:17pm Thanks Yadda, I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Meanwhile, please do continue on with our quoting of da'if hadith that have no resemblance to sharia law.
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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #65 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:40pm

Sorry, I saw Yadda and a bunch of biblical looking quotes and thought you were quoting him. That is very interesting. I will bring it up with Abu and Falah if they ever return. They insist that such constradictions don't exist.

Quote:

Is it a coincidence that the only sharia laws that have a man-made punishment in some islamic societies are those that have a direct adverse impact on society? No.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Did you mean to distinguish man-made punishments from anything else? Is this a reference to modern Islamic societies?

Quote:

No candidate is "vetted" before they stand in the model I'm talking about.

Which is? You said earlier in this thread that there would be 'provisions' to preserve the Islamic nature of the society despite democracy. I couldn't get you to elaborate at the time. Perhaps you should now.

Quote:

If you have an islamic society from which say 3 candidates stand for a run-off election to be their leader. Candidate A and B are islamists, and candidate C is anti-islamist. In the run-off election, candidate C is eliminated because most members of society are islamists who have no wish to vote for an anti-islamist candidate.

Preferential voting. Nice. Does your proposal involve multiple elections?

The example you gave actually risks a failure to compromise situation. Unless the 'vast' majority of the society are Muslims, candidate C is likely to make it into the final round.

Quote:

Also Iran is not a model of islamic democracy.

Does that mean that Ahmadinejad's ruling about how to handle a goat after you have had sex with it has no basis in Islam?

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Yadda

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #66 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:17pm:

Thanks Yadda, I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

Meanwhile, please do continue on with our quoting of da'if hadith that have no resemblance to sharia law.

To moslems, in various Sharia jurisdictions, Sharia law is a 'moving feast', in the same way that a moslem, a true moslem, is 'a man for all seasons'.

In the sense of a moslem is, "A flag in the wind.", and, "Which way is the wind blowing today ?"

Quote:

The term 'moving feast' is probably a corruption of the term 'Moveable Feast'. That term refers to the concept of Christian Feast Days or Holy Festivals which do not have a fixed date, but fall on different days of the year according to the workings of complex formulae. Easter is a good example of a moveable feast day because the date is worked out on moon phases which changes the date from year to year.
As I understand it (and I am no expert) it is used to describe circumstances or events where the meaning or rules are nebulous or continually changing, like the tax laws, or the rail time tables, or political conventions.
'A Moveable Feast' is also the title of the memoirs of Ernest Hemingway, written in the 1920's concerning his life and loves in Paris. Apparently, the chapters and events do not follow a strict time line and have been edited several times by people who think they know the sequence that Hemingway should have written it. Once again, a nebulous idea with changing rules and sequences. I hope this helps.

Google it

Who is the God of creation ?

Psalms 5:1
Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.
4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

'leasing' above, refers to deceit.

Hell, is able to, and will, accommodate all of you deceivers.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #67 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 4:41pm

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

Did you mean to distinguish man-made punishments from anything else? Is this a reference to modern Islamic societies?

Of course I'm distinguishing between man-made punishments and islamic prescriptions. Again, some acts are punishable in an islamic society because of the negative effects it has on society - not simply because islamic law prohibits them. Once again, islamic law is primarily interested in personal duties between the individual and God.

And yes, I am referring to current islamic regimes - as well as past regimes. Whether or not you consider these regimes trully "islamic", the fact is there has never (to my knowledge) been any serious efforts by any islamists to introduce compulsion into day-to-day islamic living - apart from the specific acts mentioned already that have a direct negative impact on society.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

You said earlier in this thread that there would be 'provisions' to preserve the Islamic nature of the society despite democracy. I couldn't get you to elaborate at the time. Perhaps you should now.

Well you never actually asked me to elaborate, but this system is obviously a work in progress. If we're talking about a constitutional republic (as I originally was), then the protections I alluded to would be provided here. Does it mean candidates are necessarily "vetted" to comply to the constitution thus making it undemocratic? Not necessarily. Most democratic constitutional republics have democratic ways to change the constitution. My central point stands though - that an islamic system remains islamic as long as the voice of the people wills it - and this is likely to remain the case as long as the population remains predominantly muslim. Of course there are exceptions - such as Turkey - but even here the secular reforms came about when Turkey was not yet a democracy.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

Preferential voting. Nice. Does your proposal involve multiple elections?

You've never heard of presidential run-offs? Its about the most common system of presidential voting from France to Indonesia - even the US system of primaries is the same sort of thing. Yes, of course it means multiple elections - unless one candidate gets enough of a mandate in the first round, but usually they don't.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #68 - Jan 20^th, 2013 at 4:56pm

Quote:

You've never heard of presidential run-offs? Its about the most common system of presidential voting from France to Indonesia - even the US system of primaries is the same sort of thing. Yes, of course it means multiple elections - unless one candidate gets enough of a mandate in the first round, but usually they don't.

Would you be in favour of a system where these runoffs could be conducted instantaneously rather than requiring people to return to the polls?

Quote:

Of course I'm distinguishing between man-made punishments and islamic prescriptions. Again, some acts are punishable in an islamic society because of the negative effects it has on society - not simply because islamic law prohibits them. Once again, islamic law is primarily interested in personal duties between the individual and God.

Which category would the death penalty for apostasy fall under - man made or Islamic prescription?

Quote:

Well you never actually asked me to elaborate, but this system is obviously a work in progress.

By you, or is this some kind of group?

Quote:

If we're talking about a constitutional republic (as I originally was), then the protections I alluded to would be provided here. Does it mean candidates are necessarily "vetted" to comply to the constitution thus making it undemocratic? Not necessarily. Most democratic constitutional republics have democratic ways to change the constitution. My central point stands though - that an islamic system remains islamic as long as the voice of the people wills it - and this is likely to remain the case as long as the population remains predominantly muslim.

Are you now saying that there would be no 'extra-democratic' provisions for the society to remain Islamic? Is this work in progress nothing more than reinventing democracy?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #69 - Jan 21^st, 2013 at 11:59am

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 4:56pm:

Would you be in favour of a system where these runoffs could be conducted instantaneously rather than requiring people to return to the polls?

umm... I guess... Huh

- does it make a difference?

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 4:56pm:

Which category would the death penalty for apostasy fall under - man made or Islamic prescription?

I question the claim that islam prescribes death for apostasy. I argued that point in about the first thread I participated in on this board. I believe the confusion arises from a specific practice during the prophet's time where enemies of islam would infiltrate the muslim camp, pretend to convert, and then use their position as trusted brothers to sow discord and weaken the islamic nation. Thus the prescription was more about punishing traitors and saboteurs - of which death is standard punishment for most places - islamic or not.

In this context, the act in question is a de-facto act of war - as any nation on earth would treat it as. It therefore doesn't really come under the regular day-to-day laws that govern an islamic nation, but how to respond to an attack by a foreign aggressor. I think its pretty standard fair to execute spies and sabateurs and traitors.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #70 - Jan 21^st, 2013 at 12:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 21^st, 2013 at 11:59am:

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 4:56pm:

Would you be in favour of a system where these runoffs could be conducted instantaneously rather than requiring people to return to the polls?

umm... I guess... Huh

- does it make a difference?

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2013 at 4:56pm:

Which category would the death penalty for apostasy fall under - man made or Islamic prescription?

I question the claim that islam prescribes death for apostasy. I argued that point in about the first thread I participated in on this board. I believe the confusion arises from a specific practice during the prophet's time where enemies of islam would infiltrate the muslim camp, pretend to convert, and then use their position as trusted brothers to sow discord and weaken the islamic nation. Thus the prescription was more about punishing traitors and saboteurs - of which death is standard punishment for most places - islamic or not.

In this context, the act in question is a de-facto act of war - as any nation on earth would treat it as. It therefore doesn't really come under the regular day-to-day laws that govern an islamic nation, but how to respond to an attack by a foreign aggressor. I think its pretty standard fair to execute spies and sabateurs and traitors.

What you are confirming, is that ISLAM is a nation, rather than ISLAM being exclusively a religion.

And moslems are bringing their nation, into every country they enter.

And with that, moslems are actively seeking to supplant the laws of every host nation [they enter], with Sharia [....and, Sharia favours moslems, EXCLUSIVELY].

And thereby, moslems are actively subverting the laws and the institutions of that nation.

Isn't that treason, on the part of moslems - when the total allegiance of moslems, is to the nation of ISLAM ?

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #71 - Jan 31^st, 2013 at 8:18am

Quote:

umm... I guess... Huh - does it make a difference?

Sure. It means you only need one election, rather than two in the case of the French presidenital runoff - which still suffers some of the same issues because there is only one runoff.

Also, if the runoff election is instantaneous, you end up with the system we already have in Australia. Are you trying to turn Australia into an Islamic nation by redefining Islam to be what we currently have?

Quote:

I question the claim that islam prescribes death for apostasy. I argued that point in about the first thread I participated in on this board. I believe the confusion arises from a specific practice during the prophet's time where enemies of islam would infiltrate the muslim camp, pretend to convert, and then use their position as trusted brothers to sow discord and weaken the islamic nation. Thus the prescription was more about punishing traitors and saboteurs - of which death is standard punishment for most places - islamic or not.

In this context, the act in question is a de-facto act of war - as any nation on earth would treat it as. It therefore doesn't really come under the regular day-to-day laws that govern an islamic nation, but how to respond to an attack by a foreign aggressor. I think its pretty standard fair to execute spies and sabateurs and traitors.

So if an Australian immigrant made disparaging remarks about Australia, for example about our role in current wars, Australia would interpret this as an act of war and punish them accordingly?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96377	Re: Gandalf's views on Islam Reply #72 - Jan 31^st, 2013 at 9:03am Yes, FD, but it would have to be a Muslim immigrant - i.e, an enemy.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #73 - Jan 31^st, 2013 at 11:13am

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 8:18am:

Are you trying to turn Australia into an Islamic nation by redefining Islam to be what we currently have?

What? I'm trying to turn Australian into an islamic nation now? When did this discussion ever come up??

Goodness me - the lengths you will go to in your desperate attempt to ridicule me.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 8:18am:

So if an Australian immigrant made disparaging remarks about Australia, for example about our role in current wars, Australia would interpret this as an act of war and punish them accordingly?

no, and neither would islamic law. Next strawman?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Gandalf's views on Islam
Reply #74 - Jan 31^st, 2013 at 11:35am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 11:13am:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 8:18am:

Are you trying to turn Australia into an Islamic nation by redefining Islam to be what we currently have?

What? I'm trying to turn Australian into an islamic nation now? When did this discussion ever come up??

Goodness me - the lengths you will go to in your desperate attempt to ridicule me.

I was making fun of your attempt to come up with a system of democracy that happens to be identical to the one we already have.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 11:13am:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 8:18am:

[quote author=freediver link=1354330218/71#71 date=1359584332]So if an Australian immigrant made disparaging remarks about Australia, for example about our role in current wars, Australia would interpret this as an act of war and punish them accordingly?

no, and neither would islamic law. Next strawman?

Can you explain what else you meant by sowing discord? Does that mean slaughtering people?

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