Ooh goody - a thread dedicated to me. Should I be honoured?

freediver wrote on Dec 1^st, 2012 at 12:50pm:


I will try, but please be aware I am not an islamic scholar, do not (yet) speak arabic - and thus am in no better position than you to make authoritative judgments. Ultimately my judgments can be little more than hearing all sides of the arguments and looking at mainstream scholarly opinions.

Apostasy - no Quranic prescription, but most muslim scholars argue that islam prescribes death based on certain hadith. I do not know enough about it to have an opinion on whether this is right or not.

Democracy - surely a term that is far too loaded. Overall though I am not aware of any inherent contradiction between islamic law and the principle of democracy. Though I would imagine there would have to be provisions to safeguard the "islamic" character of the society. They couldn't, for example, "democratically" pass legislation that is prohibited by islamic law (eg legalise alcohol) - unless of course it was for the benefit of the non-islamic population - which is what happens in Malaysia.

Slavery - slavery is permitted in islam under limited and strict conditions. The quranic prescription of slavery makes sense given the context - which was the welfare of non-muslims who were taken in war. Why do I say welfare? Because standard practice of non-islamic contemporary regimes was to mass slaughter POWs and conquered people. Slavery was also common in all societies - but before islam, were almost universally characterised by mistreatment and cruelty. The introduction of islamic slavery - with hitherto unheard of considerations for the basic human rights of the slaves - was a massive step-up in the ethical treatment of conquered people.

If you're asking me what islam says about slavery today, the answer is I don't know. I don't know the exact conditions required for slavery, and whether or not they can be met in the modern world. I suspect they do not.

Blasphemy - Now we both know you know my opinion on this - I expressed in one of the first threads I contributed on in this forum. Please refresh your memory (hint: my opinion is clearly stated on the first page).

Stoning people to death - which is for adultery only - just to be clear, since you seem to throw around this term as if every single islamic punishment involves this. This is another one of those "islamic laws" that has no quranic basis. In fact the quran prescribes a completely different form of punishment for adultery (flogging). I am extremely sceptical that stoning is part of shariah law - and given that the practice is so rare as to be virtually non-existent in the islamic world today (and I'm pretty sure has been for a long long time), it would seem the great majority of the muslim world agrees with me (excepting Abu - apparently).

Collective punishment - strictly forbidden in islam. There are several quranic verses that clearly sets out a code of ethics for legitimate warfare - and things like destruction of civilian property, killing of civilians, needless destruction and inhumane treatment of conquered people are strictly forbidden.

Domestic violence - strictly forbidden under islamic law. Violence against women - especially your wife is expressly forbidden. There is one oft-quoted quranic verse about men lightly hitting the wife if she refuses sex - but my understanding is that the arabic word for "hit" is a mistranslation - and it is meant in a metaphorical sense.

Spousal rape - as explained above

Equality before the law - presumably referring to muslims compared to non-muslims? They are not equal before sharia law - because for most things sharia does not apply for non-muslims. Non-muslims do not enjoy an equal legal status as muslims (under a sharia system). This can mean, for example, that non-muslims are allowed to drink alcohol, avoid military service, and not be subject to many of the sharia penal code.

Arranged marriages - as far as I know has no basis in islamic law. This is a cultural practice.

Marrying pre-pubescent girls - islamic law has no legal age for marriage.

Necrophilia - you are joking, surely. I *REALLY* hope - though sadly suspect you are - referring to the recent report coming out from Egypt about some alleged legislation to legalise it - which was quickly proven to be a hoax?

Islam forbids necrophillia - obviously 

Adultery - a crime under islamic law in which the sentence is either stoning or flogging - depending on which islamic scholars you follow. My understanding is that the punishment is automatic for the man, but certain circumstances have to be met before the punishment can be meted out on the woman.

Polygamy - islam allows a man to marry up to 4 wives

Alcohol - alcohol is forbidden under islamic law

Music - *NOT* forbidden under islamic law. And many muslims use music as a medium to spread the teachings of islam - see Mahir Zain and Yousef Islam (the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens) for two prominent contemporary examples.

Quote:

I think islamic law has it pretty much right - keeping in mind that I am unclear on many many details of islamic law, and noting the wide differences of opinions amongst islamic scholars. Overall I tend to side with the more moderate interpretations - eg stoning should be out.

gandalf,

In the light of your response, @ post #1, do you consider yourself to be a moslem ?

And do you consider yourself to be an authentic, practising [a 'rightly guided'] moslem ?




If your response is in the affirmative to the two Q's above, then imo, you are in error [based upon your responses in post #1 to the issues that you replied to].

Q.
What do you understand about ISLAMIC law, and what ISLAMIC law permits ???

A.
Very little.




Your responses;

Apostasy   WRONG   Koran 4.88, 89    IF THEY OPPOSE YOU 'seize them and slay them wherever ye find them'  'islam prescribes death based on certain hadith' ...AND IN ISLAMIC LAW TEXTS fiqhussunnah/#3.110
Democracy
Slavery  CORRECT         'If you're asking me what islam says about slavery today, the answer is I don't know.' ...THERE IS NO CHANGE FROM THE SANCTION WHICH APPLIED IN 7 TH CENTURY
Blasphemy   ???
Stoning people to death
Collective punishment  'strictly forbidden in islam'   REALLY ?   THOUGH COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS ACTIVELY IMPLEMENTED; E.G. POPE INSULTS ISLAM, SAYS ISLAM IS VIOLENT, NUNS ARE MURDERED IN AFRICA; MOHAMMED CARTOONS PUBLISHED IN EUROPE, NON-MOSLEMS IN SHARIA JURISDICTIONS ARE MURDERED
Domestic violence  WRONG - EFFECTIVELY SANCTIONED    Koran 4.034     "beat them (lightly)" is often quoted.    n.b. [highlight]The 'clarifying' insertion, "(lightly)", DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE ARABIC VERSIONS OF THE KORAN
Spousal rape  EFFECTIVELY SANCTIONED IN THE.... Koran 2.223
Equality before the law WRONG - NON-MOSLEMS ARE TOLERATED, UNLESS THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT INJUSTICE
Arranged marriages WRONG      Koran 2.221
Marrying pre-pubescent girls   CORRECT - AISHA HERSELF IS QUOTED, ABOUT THE AGE OF HER JOINING TO M.
Necrophilia   PRETTY SURE THIS IS SANCTIONED
Adultery  CORRECT
Polygamy  CORRECT 'islam allows a man to marry up to 4 wives' ...AND TO HAVE SEX WITH ANY NUMBER OF FEMALE SLAVES
Alcohol   CORRECT
Music   ALL UN-ISLAMIC MUSIC IS HARAM

Apostasy - it is deceptive to refer only to the Koran, as the majority of Islamic law comes not expressly from the Koran but from the hadith and the consensus on Islamic rulings. The Reliance of the Traveller, the leading Sunni Islamic text recommended by Al-Azar University the leading school of Islamic sunni jurisprudence, clearly says that a person who is sane and has reached puberty and who commits apostasy must be killed.

Democracy - is only a means to an end in Islam. The only true state is the Islamic state, the caliphate. Democracy can be used to seize power, but is considered manmade rubbish, as only the true system of government is Islam and the caliphate.

Slavery - all non-muslims conquered in jihad become slaves, including sex slaves as all infidel marriages are annulled.

There are still places in Islam where slaves are kept, such as Sudan. A former Islamic slave, Simon Deng from Sudan tells harrowing stories about it.

Blasphemy - 'Any who insults the Prophet - kill him.' That's pretty clear. Mohammed was also fond of killing anyone who made fun of him, as he was such a brittle cry baby, much like the religion today.

Stoning people to death - exists for adultery in some places officially (such as Iran) but in many other Islamic places unofficially, such as Afghanistan and Pakistan. Killing people for all manner of trivia is common place in Islam, such as for insulting the prophet.

Collective punishment - operates in practice for minority religions under the Islamic state. All that is needed is for someone to start a rumour that a christian defaced a koran and a howling bloodthirsty mob will run about torching, raping, looting to keep the infidels 'in their place'. This was common in the Ottoman Empire, and more recently examples of this can be seen in Pakistan and Egypt.

Domestic violence - the Koran says you can beat your wife.

Spousal rape - there is no such thing, as in a woman cannot refuse sex in marriage except on a very limited basis, so how could she ever be raped?. A woman can only refuse sex on a medical basis for up to three days.

Equality before the law - infidels are at the whim of their Islamic masters, and must be distinguished in dress from muslims (some guy called Hitler or something had a rule like that too...)

Arranged marriages:women are considered the property of men, so women have to do what they are told by their male relatives, including who to marry.

Marrying pre-pubescent girls: indeed Mohammed who is meant to be the perfect man and the best example, married a six year old and had sex with her when she was nine. Mohammed's 'best example' is used as the rationale to promote child marriage throughout the Islamic world.

Adultery - only in reality a crime if you sleep with another Islamic woman when married, or sleep with someone who is a muslim before you are married. You can sleep with as many infidel women as you like, they are fair game.  In the Islamic world, and especially in Saudi Arabia, doing other men up the bum bum is very very common. In Afghanistan too.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2012 at 1:44pm:



Quote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/practices/fivepillars.shtml


The obligations to ISLAM, for a moslem [for EVERY self declared moslem], extend much further than what you are admitting.




gandalf,

Many moslems have expressed that they consider the Taliban period in Afghanistan to have been the purest example of an ISLAMIC society in recent times.

As a practising moslem, would you also agree ?

Was the Taliban a recent exemplar of a moral ISLAMIC society ???

IMAGE








+++

And is this why the West removed Sadam Husein ?    ----->

So that moslems could 'righteously' murder people in public parks, in Iraq, coz 1/ men and women were mixing in public, and 2/ they were listening to 'un-ILSMAIC' music ?

Google;
iraq, death at immoral picnic in the park

Yadda wrote on Dec 5^th, 2012 at 5:27pm:


no and no.

Yadda wrote on Dec 5^th, 2012 at 5:53pm:


That is a logical fallacy. If islam forbids action A, it does not  follow that islam sanctions action B in reponse. Or in other words, responding to haram behaviour with rioting and random destruction is *NOT* permitted. Islam has strict procedures for how justice is carried out, and mob rule is definitely not sanctioned.

Yadda wrote on Dec 5^th, 2012 at 11:36pm:


no, you asked me if it was the "purest example of an islamic society", and an "exemplar of a moral islamic society" - in which case I said no and no.

Thats not to say it was "un-islamic" - though many of its practices was unislamic such as keeping women covered from head to toe, and banning girls from going to school. Though I must say in the context of Afghanistan at the time, there were very good reasons to do this given the anarchy and abuse of women that was happening before the taliban came to power. The draconian laws regarding woman undoubtedly reduced the rates of rape and abuse of women. But it shouldn't be considered "islamic" - though I'm sure the taliban (and others) would attempt to justify it on islamic grounds.

Yadda wrote on Dec 5^th, 2012 at 11:36pm:


No.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:



picture sharing

That's from Reliance of the Traveller, leading Islamic sunni textbook recommended by Al Azar university, which is so important reference is made in the new Egyptian constitution as to its importance.

Calanen wrote on Dec 5^th, 2012 at 10:50am:


Quote:


Actually it wasn’t.  They have still been dithering about that in 2012.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9078684/Iran-moves-to-...

So what they did was say,  oh we’ve scrapped it, then dragged their feet for four years and the President still hasn’t signed the law. They will just kill people in other ways for the same crime, as Amnesty International has stated in the article. The announcement to scrap the practice is just a sop to wide eyed westerners who are easily fooled.
Quote:


Rubbish, that is revisionist nonsense.  Jews were made to cower in Islamic societies and still are today. What about all the Jews driven from Islamic lands after Israel was created in 1948? Not much interfaith tolerance shown there.  They have textbooks listing the ‘Contemptible Qualities of the Jew’ that are handed out by Saudi Arabia to Islamic schools around the world, and the anti-semitic rhetoric that is considered mainstream in the Middle East is worse than the Third Reich on its worse day. The Middle East even recycles old Nazi cartoons showing the evil jews. One of the biggest sellers in the Middle East is the Arabic translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Quote:


It’s not baseless, again this is right there in Reliance of the Traveller, Umdat al Salik. A women can refuse sex only for up to three days for medical reasons. Men are allowed to beat women if they are disobedient, so as night follows day, no sex, a beating is to follow. And exactly how can an Islamic women with no rights complain anyway?