freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 11:35am:


Um ok... and? Why on earth would that be worthy of ridicule? Australia is a thriving democracy, it has a robust system - and its certainly not inherently incompatible with an islamic system. Its a model to be proud of - why the hell shouldn't it be emulated??

And we're talking about the design of a hypothetical islamic regime - not transforming the established and working system Australia already has.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 11:35am:

An analogy would be an "immigrant" in Australia - who was in fact planted as a spy by a hypothetical foreign enemy, who then goes about maliciously doing and saying things with the specific aim of weakening the nation and deliberately increasing its susceptibility to an attack by his foreign masters.

Like I said, stock standard spying and sabatage - of which execution is pretty much standard across the world - muslim or not.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 2:08pm:


I didn't say it was. I also said I don't believe islamic law prescribes death for merely 'saying things'.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 21^st, 2013 at 11:59am:

The Islamic republic of Iran executes apostates as do the Saudis.
The Saudi constitution says Gods book (quran) and the sunnah of his prophet are the Saudi constitution,Islam originated in Saudi Arabia.

Here is an Islamic scholar telling us why apostates are to be executed for the crime of disbelieving after you have believed.
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20327/apostate
I suggest all converts to Islam should read the fine print on the exit policy with Islam before joining that death cult.


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So what about Hanoi Jane Fonda why is she still alive?
John walker Lindh was caught fighting with the Taliban why is he still alive?
Who was the last person executed in the USA for spying or treason and how long ago was that?

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 2:46pm:

*yawn* getting tired of this...

use your imagination for God's sake. Everyone knows what a traitor is during war time. Someone who spys and does traitorous things for the specific purpose of helping their nation's enemies.

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not really. I'm not an expert at creating governments and nations. I don't really know how these things are done. Suffice to say I think it stands to reason that a self-described islamic nation would want to institute certain measures to protect the islamic character of the nation.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 3:03pm:


Good for them. The Saudis though are run by crazy salafists who are pretty much universally despised throughout the muslim world.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 3:03pm:


Wow thats great, fascinating, I'm totally convinced 

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 3:41pm:


righto then - so imagine WWII, the nazis send a spy into Britain to spread rumours and lies to cause panic and confusion to weaken the resolve of the British people, and help Germany gain military dominance over Britain. No doubt though if the British caught him and uncovered his operation they would just laugh it off and say "oh he has a right to say stuff" 

This scenario is pretty much identical to what the "apostates" that were executed by the prophet were doing.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 3:41pm:

yup

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 3:41pm:

yeah, you are effectively.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 3:41pm:


No, I spent about 8 pages pointing out the pure absurdity of your practice of making hard, authoritative claims on islamic jurisprudence, and then using conversations between you and Abu, or often you and another islamophobe, as sources for those claims.

Yes it is true, Baron is streets ahead of you in knowing how to source properly - but thats not saying much. While he is on the right track, he doesn't go nearly far enough. See Baron is what we call a bigot. He has made up his mind about islam even before he knows anything about it. He hates islam and he hates muslims, and nothing is going to sway him from that view. So he then goes in search of "authoritative" sources that support his pre-conceived notions about islam. He will purposefully sift through all the sources that give the opposite view of what he is looking for in order to find the "right" sources. Take the quote he gave for example - it would have been literally impossible for him to find that source on google without ignoring the many hits that give the opposite view. So if (for example) he typed in "islam apostasy" in google, the very first result would have been a wikipedia article, which would provide him with this slightly inconvenient piece of information:

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freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 7:48pm:


Abu and Falah are preparing for an invasion of Australia by the mighty Afghan forces are they? Interesting.

If, as you claim, they are directly involved in facilitating terrorist attacks against Australian citizens, then I suggest you notify ASIO, and they should be locked up. And I dare say a substantial number of Australians would support sentencing them to death.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 7:48pm:


I suggest you look up Operation Greif. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about.

If you're still confused about my point about the need to distinguish between preserving religious freedom and protecting society, I recommend this article:

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The article also quotes a number of relevant hadith:

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That was soldiers shooting people and blowing things up. Hardly the same thing as 'spreading rumours and lies.' It is ludicrous to attempt to link the death penalty for apostasy with Muhammed's enemies infiltrating his empire so that they could say demoralising things to people. It does not even make sense. What good is a 'spy' who deliberately draws attention to himself this way?

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Yes I have seen many Muslims deliberately cloud the issue by trying to confuse it the way you have. Abu attempted to pass it off as being limited to treason in one thread, then in another explained that anyone who even 'acted gay' should be subject to the death penalty because their actions take them outside of Islam to the point of apostasy.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 9:55pm:


No Operation Greif also involved the spreading of false rumours - to send the American camp into panic and chaos. Like for example planting the false rumour that Eisenhower was targeted for assassination. Even without the physical sabotage, such an operation would have been met with immediate execution of anyone caught.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 9:55pm:


*sigh* - yes, everything muslims do is all very sinister ins't it? I couldn't possibly attempt to explain anything about islam in good faith without you turning it into something malicious on my part.