Australian Politics Forum - Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21914
A cat with a view

Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 11:16pm

Theodore Roosevelt [1858-1919] on the prospects of Muslim liberalization

Quote:

...observations [of] former president Theodore Roosevelt made after visiting that country [Egypt] in 1910. Discussing the Egyptian Nationalist movement, which sought to expel the British imperialists, Roosevelt noted that while some of its leaders had liberal ideas, their views would not prevail. He wrote:

Quote:
The real strength of the Nationalist movement in Egypt, however, lay not with these Levantines of the cafes, but with the mass of practically unchanged bigoted Moslems to whom the movement meant driving out the foreigner, plundering and slaying the local Christian, and a return to all the violence and corruption which festered under the old-style Moslem rule, whether Asiatic or African.

More, from another commentator....

As an exclamation point to your recent comments I would simply add the following. In Christopher Caldwell’s Reflections on the Revolution in Europe he cites both Ernest Renan in 1883 and Hilaire Belloc in 1938 as examples of European intellectuals who warned that the West should be neither impressed by Islam or forgetful of it.

Renan is quoted as follows:

Quote:
Those liberals who defend Islam do not know Islam. Islam is the seamless union of the spiritual and the temporal, it is the reign of dogma, it is the heaviest chain mankind has ever borne. In the early Middle Ages, Islam tolerated philosophy because it could not stop it. It could not stop it because it was as yet disorganized, and poorly armed for terror … But as soon as Islam had a mass of ardent believers at its disposal, it destroyed everything in its path. Religious terror and hypocrisy were the order of the day. Islam has been liberal when weak, and violent when strong. Let us not give it credit for what was merely unable to suppress.

Belloc is quoted as follows:

Quote:
[Westerners] have forgotten all about Islam. They never come in contact with it. They take for granted that it is decaying, and that, anyway, it is just a foreign religion which will not concern them. It is, as a fact, the most formidable and persistent enemy which our civilization has had, and may at any moment become as large a menace in the future as it has been in the past … It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that there would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons and grandsons would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years its greatest opponent.

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/019355.html

+++

The chance for moslem liberalisation, in any age, perhaps today ?

No chance.

Silly Orientalist ['Westerner'] !

Why would moslems need to reform ISLAM [or reform their own ideas and 'ideals'], when moslems already 'know' and are certain that ISLAM is Allah's perfect and inerrant religion ?

Their clerics tell them so.

And who may enter into debate about what Allah's will is, when every moslem is taught from childhood that they must obey their moslem clerics, without question.

"We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed..........they ['believers'] can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction."
Koran 4.64, 65

And today, obviously, moslem clerics stand in Mohammed's 'place'.iThere can be no 'moderation' of mainstream ISLAM.

There is no need for any moderation of mainstream ISLAM.

Because ISLAM is already perfect.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

newtown_grafitti Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106 Gender:	Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization Reply #1 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 11:37pm Quote: There can be no 'moderation' of mainstream ISLAM. There is no need for any moderation of mainstream ISLAM. The world may have moved on a bit since 1910, old son.
Back to top	IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21914
A cat with a view

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #2 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 11:51pm

newtown_grafitti wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 11:37pm:

Quote:

There can be no 'moderation' of mainstream ISLAM.

There is no need for any moderation of mainstream ISLAM.

The world may have moved on a bit since 1910, old son.

But ISLAM has not.

ISLAM is still murdering those who dare to scrutinise, and criticise, its murderous and unjust philosophy, just as it did in 1910.

Moslems are still murdering those who do not believe, as they believe, just as they did in 1910.

Quote:

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb, .......A moslem, promoting, justifying, ISLAM's murder of all humanity if necessary, to further the moslem Allah's cause.

Sayyid Qutb 1906 - 1966

Quote:

Sayyid Qutb was an Egyptian author, educator, Islamist theorist, poet, and the leading member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and '60s.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #3 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:04pm

The world has moved on (modernity) but Islam has not, and will not. Declaring itself the immutable, perfect word of Allah, it has locked itself into a position where compromise (a normal part of life) is impossible.

So either Islam will bend the world to its will or the world will have to break Islam. As neither of these is likely to happen completely, the conflict and crisis is set to remain perpetual, as it has been since the 7th century.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96660	Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization Reply #4 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:32pm Quite right, old chap. Two world wars and a cold war between Western powers in the last century alone. But that’s nothing compared to the constant state of crisis caused by the attempt at Muslim world domination. These Musels are despicable.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49452 At my desk.	Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization Reply #5 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:15pm So Japan and Russia are now the west? And the 'Muslim nations' were uninvolved in these wars or any other local wars? You are starting to sound like Abu.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96660	Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization Reply #6 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 11:21pm You’re right, FD. I stand corrected. Not only were the Moslems responsible for the rape of Nanking, they were behind the Bolshevik revolution as well. That’s your Muselman for you. Sinister.
Back to top	IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21914
A cat with a view

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #7 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:23am

Karnal wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 11:21pm:

You’re right, FD. I stand corrected.

Not only were the Moslems responsible for the rape of Nanking, they were behind the Bolshevik revolution as well.

That’s your Muselman for you. Sinister.

K,

You [and many others] choose to give moslems a 'pass'.

Having come to the knowledge of what ISLAM promotes, i do not give moslems or ISLAM, a 'pass'.

That is the difference between us.

I want to separate everything which i value, from the influence of moslems and ISLAM.

I want to separate everything which i value, from the wickedness of ISLAM.

And you do not.

I know that everything which ISLAM 'touches', will be corrupted by the violence and lies of ISLAM.

In this physical realm good and evil can exist in very close proximity to each other.

And it can be difficult sometimes to immediately discern the one, from the other.

And it would seem, that people like yourself desire that good and evil should exist in close proximity to each other [in this physical realm].

Why so ?

Because i think that you know, that the proximity of evil to the good, will corrupt what is good, and what is innocent.

And that is your desire, imo.

IMO, discernment and discrimination are spiritual virtues.

My opinion is that we should not mix the precious with the vile.

We should choose to separate ourselves from what is [spiritually] vile, and [spiritually] evil.

Some of us will choose that path.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

+++

ISLAM will never be 'reformed'.

The nature of that 'beast' makes reform of ISLAM impossible.

But, will we [who are not 'ISLAM'] choose to allow ourselves to be corrupted, and destroyed, by what ISLAM is ?

Look at what ISLAM has already done, to moslem nations!

Look at what ISLAM has already done, to all of those persons who have chosen to embrace ISLAM!

All societies in the world today, which claim to be ISLAMIC and Sharia guided, are nests of oppression, depravity, corruption, violence, injustice, and human poverty.

Life is so easy.

Just make good choices.

Choose the good.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:45am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96660

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #8 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:41am

But Yadda, how can you separate everything you value from the all-pervasive evil that is Islam?

They’re responsible for the state of heightened danger that we have always found ourselves in. These people are out to get us. We are at war with Islam. We have always been at war with Islam.

Even when we’re at war with someone else, we’ll still be at war with Islam.

These people are trecherous.

Back to top

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21914
A cat with a view

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #9 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:56am

Karnal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:41am:

But Yadda, how can you separate everything you value from the all-pervasive evil that is Islam?

They’re responsible for the state of heightened danger that we have always found ourselves in. These people are out to get us. We are at war with Islam. We have always been at war with Islam.

Even when we’re at war with someone else, we’ll still be at war with Islam.

These people are trecherous.

ISLAM allows no freedom of conscience. - ISLAM requires that those who abandon ISLAM be killed by moslems.

ISLAM allows moslem parents to kill their own children.

ISLAM allows moslems to lie to non-moslems, to misrepresent ISLAM, to non-moslems. Google; taqiyya

ISLAM allows moslems to steal the property of non-moslems.

ISLAM allows moslems to kill non-moslems.

ISLAM requires moslems to engage in a never-ending warfare against non-moslems, to bring non-moslems into subjugation under moslems and Sharia law.

ISLAM prevents non-moslems from giving evidence against moslems, in a Sharia court.

ISLAM allows sexual slavery.
....and on, and on.

K,

ISLAM-o-reality, not ISLAM-O-PHOBIA

Like i said, you choose to give moslems and ISLAM a 'pass', i do not.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #10 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:06am

Karnal wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:32pm:

Quite right, old chap. Two world wars and a cold war between Western powers in the last century alone.

But that’s nothing compared to the constant state of crisis caused by the attempt at Muslim world domination.

These Musels are despicable.

Your post-colonial blinkers are in evidence, PB.

I was talking about the conflict between modernity (West) and Islam. There are other conflicts. Some resolved, some not.

But this conflict is slated to remain unresolved. Islam used to clash with Christianity, with Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, with 'what have you got?'. It has always had bloody borders.
Now it is clashing with modernity. That's what it does. It clashes.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96660

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #11 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:30am

Quite right, dear. Like a paisley cravat or a loud pair of golf trousers. These Muselmen have no sense of sfyle. Have you seen the kaftans? Unbearable. How can one live alongside such a tasteless people?

Mind you, that new Egyptian president wears a dapper looking suit. Cunning, eh?

I find it’s the ones who don’t clash that you have to watch.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:38am by Karnal »

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21914
A cat with a view

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #12 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:57am

Karnal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:30am:

Quite right, dear. Like a paisley cravat or a loud pair of golf trousers. These Muselmen have no sense of sfyle. Have you seen the kaftans? Unbearable. How can one live alongside such a tasteless people?

Mind you, that new Egyptian president wears a dapper looking suit. Cunning, eh?

I find it’s the ones who don’t clash that you have to watch.

OBSERVATION;
If you defeat K's argument in debate [with logic], K will always revert to responding with absurdities.

Quote:

K is capable of presenting a reasonable argument, and engaging in reasoned debate.

But what you must understand about K and his debating style, is that if you defeat K's argument in debate [by presenting a fact supported counter argument],
K will never cleanly concede [by acknowledgement, or, with his silence] that you have defeated his argument.

Of course, K would try present another counter argument, to try to defeat your argument, if he could.

But unable to defeat your argument with sound reason [or with supporting facts] K will then, ALWAYS, resorts to responding with absurdities.

....With K, it seems to be an ego 'defence mechanism'.

Defeat K's argument, and all he has left is inane reply, ....which is intended to deflect [and discredit] the thrust of your own reasoned argument.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1356906751/62#62

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96660	Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization Reply #13 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:32am True, Yadda. The old boy’s point about mofernity and Islam is superior logic. You know, no holocausts, Hiroshimas or total war. That’s modernity. That’s playing by the rules. Your Muselman ’s tactics are much more discrete and sinister. It’s a matter of style, no?
Back to top	IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Theodore Roosevelt on poss Muslim liberalization
Reply #14 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:57pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

True, Yadda. The old boy’s point about mofernity and Islam is superior logic.

You know, no holocausts, Hiroshimas or total war. That’s modernity. That’s playing by the rules.

Your Muselman ’s tactics are much more discrete and sinister. It’s a matter of style, no?

Your stupid examples about Hiroshima and the holocaust try to make it out as if the argument against Islam was that it causes every conflict. You are not so smacking stupid to actually believe that that was the argument but you are smacking dishonest and mendacious enough to twist and invert it as if it was.

Back to top

IP Logged