Australian Politics Forum - Article 31 UN Refugee Convention

Maqqa

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #60 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:53pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:51pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:02pm:

[quote author=Jim_Puddle-Duck link=1356652490/46#46 date=1356813671]
On almost every point you sidestep your error by making an absolutly irrelivant statment.

Just because you didn't understand it does not mean I side stepped

I thought that your problem was that in almost every case your second statment contradicted the first and in one claimed you hadn't even said it.

Just keep moving the goal posts.

The goal post remains the same as per my 1st and 2nd post

The people moving from one side of the border to another must be persecuted in order to enjoy the benefits of the UN Convention.

These people are not being persecuted by the Indonesian or Malaysian.

PROOF?

When they lodge their application - there's not one that claim asylum due to prosecution from Indonesia or Malaysia

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Dnarever

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #61 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:58pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Asylum seekers continue to come to countries whom have signed the refugee convention because there own country is unsafe, which is why they are granted refugee status.....If the only way to stop people seeking freedom is to treat them inhumanly or ignore their plight for domestic political gain then we have truly reached the bottom of the barrel.....If people are deemed refugees they deserve our help not our scorn and ridicule.....WTF is wrong with you people when our political leaders can tell you it is alright to treat people like criminals when they have broken no laws and only accepted the help we offered them.....The ALP and Coalition are both guilty of playing politics with peoples lives when they have no right to ignore international treaties we have signed that lead to these drastic outcomes in the first place???

Labor have been playing politics and is costing us billions

The LIBs got the policy correct - Labor changed it and created a problem

The Liberals have played politics with this issue all of this term, Tony's priority has been to ensure he gets his way or the boats keep comming.

He got his own way in the end on Nauru and it didn't work.

Now he looks real foolish on the subject.

His advice was to just pick up the phone and call the president of Nauru - ho ho ho. Marry xmas president, we will give you a truck load full of money and get no result at all - Good one Abbott - fail.

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Maqqa

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #62 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:02pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:58pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Asylum seekers continue to come to countries whom have signed the refugee convention because there own country is unsafe, which is why they are granted refugee status.....If the only way to stop people seeking freedom is to treat them inhumanly or ignore their plight for domestic political gain then we have truly reached the bottom of the barrel.....If people are deemed refugees they deserve our help not our scorn and ridicule.....WTF is wrong with you people when our political leaders can tell you it is alright to treat people like criminals when they have broken no laws and only accepted the help we offered them.....The ALP and Coalition are both guilty of playing politics with peoples lives when they have no right to ignore international treaties we have signed that lead to these drastic outcomes in the first place???

Labor have been playing politics and is costing us billions

The LIBs got the policy correct - Labor changed it and created a problem

The Liberals have played politics with this issue all of this term, Tony's priority has been to ensure he gets his way or the boats keep comming.

He got his own way in the end on Nauru and it didn't work.

Now he looks real foolish on the subject.

His advice was to just pick up the phone and call the president of Nauru - ho ho ho. Marry xmas president, we will give you a truck load full of money and get no result at all - Good one Abbott - fail.

Get stuffed DNA

The Pacific Solution was working - Labor got rid of it and created this problem

Abbott wants Labor to be honest with the Australian people and admit they got it wrong

Then he wants the Pacific Solution reinstated IN FULL. Nauru was a portion of the Pacific Solution. We've never said it was to be the be all and end all.

Labor once again played politics and commissioned the Houston report which attempts to copy the Pacific Solution. But it's still a copy

Labor continues to want to do their way even though their way means people dying.

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Dnarever

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #63 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:13pm

The summary documentation to article 31 (interpretations) directly refutes your understanding of the UN convention.

It actually is saying that the opposite is true.

http://www.unhcr.org/419c783f4.pdf

Summary Conclusions: Article 31 of the 1951 Convention

Specific considerations
10. In relation to Article 31(1):

(a) Article 31(1) requires that refugees shall not be penalized solely by reason of unlawful entry or because, being in need of refuge and protection, they remain illegally in a country.

(b) Refugees are not required to have come directly from territories where their life or freedom was threatened.

(c) Article 31(1) was intended to apply, and has been interpreted to apply, to persons who have briefly transited other countries or where unable to find effective protection in the first country or countries to which they flee. The drafters only intended that immunity from penalty should not apply to refugees who found asylum, or who were settled, temporarily or permanently, in another country. The mere fact of UNHCR being operational in a certain country should not be used as a decisive argument for the availability of effective protection in that country.

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Dnarever

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #64 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:18pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:02pm:

Get stuffed DNA

The Pacific Solution was working - Labor got rid of it and created this problem

Abbott wants Labor to be honest with the Australian people and admit they got it wrong

Then he wants the Pacific Solution reinstated IN FULL. Nauru was a portion of the Pacific Solution. We've never said it was to be the be all and end all.

Labor once again played politics and commissioned the Houston report which attempts to copy the Pacific Solution. But it's still a copy

Labor continues to want to do their way even though their way means people dying.

Just get on the phone and call Nauru - just keep moving them goal posts.

When Malaysia was first blocked Abbott offered to help change the legislation to allow it, the deal was accepted and he back flipped and reneged on the deal.

Most of the term he refused to negotiate a position till in the end he had little choice but still refused to accept Malaysia.

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Maqqa

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #65 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:20pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:13pm:

The summary documentation to article 31 (interpretations) directly refutes your understanding of the UN convention.

It actually is saying that the opposite is true.

http://www.unhcr.org/419c783f4.pdf

Summary Conclusions: Article 31 of the 1951 Convention

Specific considerations
10. In relation to Article 31(1):

(a) Article 31(1) requires that refugees shall not be penalized solely by reason of unlawful entry or because, being in need of refuge and protection, they remain illegally in a country.

(b) Refugees are not required to have come directly from territories where their life or freedom was threatened.

(c) Article 31(1) was intended to apply, and has been interpreted to apply, to persons who have briefly transited other countries or where unable to find effective protection in the first country or countries to which they flee. The drafters only intended that immunity from penalty should not apply to refugees who found asylum, or who were settled, temporarily or permanently, in another country. The mere fact of UNHCR being operational in a certain country should not be used as a decisive argument for the availability of effective protection in that country.

Quote:

page 253 - last paragraph
The following summary conclusions do not necessarily represent the individual views of participants or of UNHCR, but reflect broadly the understandings emerging from the discussion.

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« Last Edit: Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:26pm by Maqqa »

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Maqqa

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #66 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:26pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:18pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:02pm:

Get stuffed DNA

The Pacific Solution was working - Labor got rid of it and created this problem

Abbott wants Labor to be honest with the Australian people and admit they got it wrong

Then he wants the Pacific Solution reinstated IN FULL. Nauru was a portion of the Pacific Solution. We've never said it was to be the be all and end all.

Labor once again played politics and commissioned the Houston report which attempts to copy the Pacific Solution. But it's still a copy

Labor continues to want to do their way even though their way means people dying.

Just get on the phone and call Nauru - just keep moving them goal posts.

When Malaysia was first blocked Abbott offered to help change the legislation to allow it, the deal was accepted and he back flipped and reneged on the deal.

Most of the term he refused to negotiate a position till in the end he had little choice but still refused to accept Malaysia.

Still does not explain why Labor won't admit it got it wrong

You keep focusing on Abbott when it was Labor who got it wrong

Until Labor verbally admit that it got the policy wrong in 2007 - no one will listen to what they have to say about solutions to fix their mistake.

This goes for the discussion on this forum.

Until such time - lefties admit Labor and Greens got it wrong. No solution will be discussed.

WHY?

If you don't admit that it's wrong - then there's nothing wrong

Therefore there's no need to discuss a solution?

So did Labor get it wrong?

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Maqqa

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #67 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:35pm

Lets look at the section DNA quote and dissect it - especially the part of the sentence that he/she didn't highlight for fear it supports my position

Quote:

10. In relation to Article 31(1):

(c) Article 31(1) was intended to apply, and has been interpreted to apply, to persons who have briefly transited other countries or who are unable to find effective protection in the first country or countries to which they flee. The drafters only intended that immunity from penalty should not apply to refugees who found asylum, or who were settled, temporarily or permanently, in another country. The mere fact of UNHCR being operational in a certain country should not be used as a decisive argument for the availability of effective protection in that country.

There are over 10 countries between Iran/Afghanistan and Australia that signed up to the UN Refugee Convention

It's shorter to get to Europe than to Australia

So you are telling us that they couldn't find "effective protection" in ANY of those countries and Australia was the ONLY one

So what is "effective protection" - effective protection from the persecution they were fleeing.

So you are telling us that out of all the countries that signed the UN Convention they that was closer than Australia that they could not find effective protection?

These people are country shopping

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Dnarever

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #68 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:52pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:26pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:18pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:02pm:

Get stuffed DNA

The Pacific Solution was working - Labor got rid of it and created this problem

Abbott wants Labor to be honest with the Australian people and admit they got it wrong

Then he wants the Pacific Solution reinstated IN FULL. Nauru was a portion of the Pacific Solution. We've never said it was to be the be all and end all.

Labor once again played politics and commissioned the Houston report which attempts to copy the Pacific Solution. But it's still a copy

Labor continues to want to do their way even though their way means people dying.

Just get on the phone and call Nauru - just keep moving them goal posts.

When Malaysia was first blocked Abbott offered to help change the legislation to allow it, the deal was accepted and he back flipped and reneged on the deal.

Most of the term he refused to negotiate a position till in the end he had little choice but still refused to accept Malaysia.

Still does not explain why Labor won't admit it got it wrong

You keep focusing on Abbott when it was Labor who got it wrong

Until Labor verbally admit that it got the policy wrong in 2007 - no one will listen to what they have to say about solutions to fix their mistake.

This goes for the discussion on this forum.

Until such time - lefties admit Labor and Greens got it wrong. No solution will be discussed.

WHY?

If you don't admit that it's wrong - then there's nothing wrong

Therefore there's no need to discuss a solution?

So did Labor get it wrong?

Any decision being made the last few years, i.e. the ones relivant to today were being blocked by the Liberals for political gain.

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!! Reply #69 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 2:00pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 1:52pm: Any decision being made the last few years, i.e. the ones relivant to today were being blocked by the Liberals for political gain. So why change it? Did Labor get it wrong? If not - there's no need for change
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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58927 Here Gender:	Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!! Reply #70 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 2:56pm Labor and the Liberals are both wrong - the handling of this has been a disgrace since around 2000.
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adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!! Reply #71 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 3:06pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 2:56pm: Labor and the Liberals are both wrong - the handling of this has been a disgrace since around 2000. Very true..onshore processing is the way to go..and it would help if we didnt go around invading third world crap holes.
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John S

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #72 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 3:38pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:03pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:05am:

John S wrote on Dec 29^th, 2012 at 6:56am:

So what part don't you understand?

In sub clause 1 it states in part

coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened

Now tell us how many countries between Afghanistan/Iran/Iraq have sign the UN Refugee Convention

http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b73b0d63.pdf

More than 10 in any direction they want to head with Australia the furthest away

Therefore these people are country shopping

where are you unwise one

I got more to do with my time then come on here and read your bullshyte

Saying that asylum seekers are country shopping just shows how racist you are maqqa. If you want to follow Howard and his racist remarks go ahead but don't try to push it down my throat

You got no feelings for someone that is having death threats made against them and their families have you, if you did you wouldn't be carry on like a pork chop in the Synagogue about asylum seekers

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Maqqa

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #73 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 3:59pm

John S wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:03pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 30^th, 2012 at 12:05am:

John S wrote on Dec 29^th, 2012 at 6:56am:

So what part don't you understand?

In sub clause 1 it states in part

coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened

Now tell us how many countries between Afghanistan/Iran/Iraq have sign the UN Refugee Convention

http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b73b0d63.pdf

More than 10 in any direction they want to head with Australia the furthest away

Therefore these people are country shopping

where are you unwise one

I got more to do with my time then come on here and read your bullshyte

Saying that asylum seekers are country shopping just shows how racist you are maqqa. If you want to follow Howard and his racist remarks go ahead but don't try to push it down my throat

You got no feelings for someone that is having death threats made against them and their families have you, if you did you wouldn't be carry on like a pork chop in the Synagogue about asylum seekers

I've shown you the number of country between Iran/Afghanistan and Australia - what's your point?

They could have seek asylum in ANY of those countries but chose Australia - the furthest. Therefore they are country shopping

You lost the point so decide to call me a racist Cheesy

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Maqqa

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Re: Article 31 UN Refugee Convention - read it!!
Reply #74 - Dec 30^th, 2012 at 4:08pm

John S wrote on Dec 29^th, 2012 at 6:56am:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 28^th, 2012 at 9:54am:

Article 31
Refugees unlawfully in the country of refugee

1. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their
illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory
where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or
are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present
themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their
illegal entry or presence.

2. The Contracting States shall not apply to the movements of such refugees
restrictions other than those which are necessary and such restrictions
shall only be applied until their status in the country is regularized or they
obtain admission into another country. The Contracting States shall allow
such refugees a reasonable period and all the necessary facilities to obtain
admission into another country.

So what part don't you understand?

In sub clause 1 it states in part

coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened

Now tell us how many countries between Afghanistan/Iran/Iraq have sign the UN Refugee Convention

You do know that a country that hasn't sign the UN Refugee Convention that they can sent a person back to where they come even if they claim asylum in that country.

Now why do you think that the Liberal Party policy on asylum seekers would stop asylum seeker coming to Australia?

the unwise one asked this question about how many countries between Afghanistan/Iran/Iraq that signed the UN Convention

I provided a list of 145 countries - but he/she stays silent on the subject instead calling me a racist because I have asserted these people are country shopping based on the fact that Australia being 3 times as far from Europe

Grin

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Poll
Question: With maqqas information, what is the % of illegals to Aust
* This poll has now closed *
100% 2 (40.0%) 99.9% 1 (20.0%) 98% 0 (0.0%) 90% 1 (20.0%) 88% 0 (0.0%) 80% 1 (20.0%) 79% 0 (0.0%) 101% 0 (0.0%) Total votes: 5 « Created by: progressiveslol on: Dec 29^th, 2012 at 8:27pm »