Australian Politics Forum - Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #120 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:57pm So not only is bigol's argument logically flawed, he had to exclude some of the evidence to back it up.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #121 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:59pm freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:53pm: Voter turnout in the UK is about 65% of registered voters. This figure obviously excludes unregistered voters, but also spoilt votes. Is that a bad thing? The 35% that didn't vote were exercising their right not to vote.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #122 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:00pm Yes it is a bad thing for democracy. 35% of registered voters did not vote. As a proportion of eligible citizens, it is far higher. Democracy is the will of the majority, not the will of an overly excitable minority.
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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #123 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:12pm

We don't have true democracy anywhere (as in the Athenian model). What we have is a number of different models of neo democracy.

Is it a bad thing for democracy? Well if you consider the right to choose whether you vote or not as part of your definition of democracy, then it's actually a good thing for democracy. If there is a low turnout that's people power - δημοκρατία (demo kratia, or literally people power) in action in the original intent and spirit of the word. It all hinges on whether you regard it as a right or a duty. In the original form, it was a right. The Athenians were not penalised for not participating in government That would been an infringement of their freedom and rights.

So it's entirely dependent on definition. There are various democracy indexes around, and the question of compulsory voting doesn't make any difference one way or the other.

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #124 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:18pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Voter turnout in the UK is about 65% of registered voters. This figure obviously excludes unregistered voters, but also spoilt votes.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

We should have a "none of the above" option on the ballet paper so that those who are dissatisfied with all candidates can still have a say. That would be even better than a spoiled or invalid paper.

If the majority of the people are not happy with the candidates then the party has to go out and find new candidates. Majority rules.

At the moment all we are getting is long term staff members who are being put forward as candidates. We want real people from our community, not public servant puppets that are only in it for their own benefit.

I think that would encourage intellectual laziness and protest voting. Voting is always going to be a tough choice. A lot of people who 'don't like politics' Would prefer an easy option that avoids the tough choice, even though they would prefer one outcome over another.

The so-called intellectually lazy people still have that choice. They vote invalid or just tick any old box.

I'd rather they had the correct box to tick.

I don't believe that the majority of people give it a great deal of thought, that's why the pollies wet themselves when their name is in #1 position on the ballot form.

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freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #125 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:25pm

Quote:

We don't have true democracy anywhere (as in the Athenian model). What we have is a number of different models of neo democracy.

It still democracy.

Quote:

Is it a bad thing for democracy? Well if you consider the right to choose whether you vote or not as part of your definition of democracy

Democracy means the will of the majority. It implies nothing about rights and freedoms, except where they influence the expression of the will of the majority.

Quote:

In the original form, it was a right. The Athenians were not penalised for not participating in government That would been an infringement of their freedom and rights.

They also prevented women, slaves, black people etc from voting. That does not mean that the athenian model defines democracy. Not sure why many people continually defer to them.

Quote:

There are various democracy indexes around, and the question of compulsory voting doesn't make any difference one way or the other.

It makes a difference when the outcome does not reflect the will of the majority.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #126 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:38pm

Actually I'll correct myself in terms of the Democracy Index. Compulsory voting reduces the Democracy index:
Quote:

III Political participation

27. Voter participation/turnout for national elections.
(average turnout in parliamentary and/or presidential elections since 2000. Turnout as proportion of population of
voting age).

1 if consistently above 70%
0.5 if between 50% and 70%
0 if below 50%
If voting is obligatory, score 0.

Score 0 if scores for questions 1 or 2 is 0.

So if among the 31 or so democracies in the world with a democratic index of 8 or above, only 2 choose to have compulsory voting, what does that say about the democratic outcome?

It's quite ironic in this kind of discussion that you should argue that a poster is using argumentum ad populum (appeal to the majority).

Isn't democracy in itself a form of appeal to the majority?

- or are you saying that you would prefer a non democratic assessment of democracy?

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #127 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:42pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 2:55pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:49am:

Bit rich that you demand I argue my case when you are too friggen lazy to come up with these supposed western democracies (35 in total) that utilise compulsory voting, the reason you cannot is they don't friggen exist.

Let's get the facts-

There are only 10 countries in the world where compulsory voting is enforced. These are:

Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ecuador, Luxembourg, Nauru, Peru, Singapore and Uruguay.

Countries with compulsory voting and with a democracy index of 8 or greater:

Australia and Luxembourg.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDsQFjAB&url=htt...

Left out Belgium (8.15)

Also who said that they needed to meet you flawed domocracy model??

Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ecuador, Luxembourg, Nauru, Peru, Singapore and Uruguay.

You leave out the 14 countries where the rule is compulsory voting but by some measure it isn't enforced. Australia could be put in that group as well.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #128 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm OK. Here's a (non compulsory) poll
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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #129 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:51pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:42pm:

Left out Belgium (8.15)

Not enforced since 2003.
Quote:

Also who said that they needed to meet you flawed domocracy model??

It seems to be well accepted, and it's better to start with something rather than nothing.

Quote:

You leave out the 14 countries where the rule is compulsory voting but by some measure it isn't enforced. Australia could be put in that group as well.

It's enforced in Australia. I know a few people who were given show cause notices.

- and after all, if compulsory voting is not enforced, it's academic. It's not compulsory. End of story. Those 14 countries include Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico and Thailand. THey don't really make the grade, and are mostly classified as flawed democracies.

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #130 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:16pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:42pm:

Left out Belgium (8.15)

Not enforced since 2003.
Quote:

Also who said that they needed to meet you flawed domocracy model??

It seems to be well accepted, and it's better to start with something rather than nothing.

Quote:

You leave out the 14 countries where the rule is compulsory voting but by some measure it isn't enforced. Australia could be put in that group as well.

It's enforced in Australia. I know a few people who were given show cause notices.

- and after all, if compulsory voting is not enforced, it's academic. It's not compulsory. End of story. Those 14 countries include Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico and Thailand. THey don't really make the grade, and are mostly classified as flawed democracies.

KJT1981
Quote:

It is not compulsory in any other Western country

- not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?

This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.

Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #131 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:36pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

Yes it is a bad thing for democracy. 35% of registered voters did not vote. As a proportion of eligible citizens, it is far higher.

Democracy is the will of the majority, not the will of an overly excitable minority.

the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.

Voluntary voting opens the path for manipulation by motivated and excitable minorities.

and best of all... Democracy demands just ONE THING. just one thing. vote. and that is so damned hard for you???

the price for living in a democracy is voting. dont like it? leave. the arguments for voluntary voting can pretty much be summed up as 'others do it' (primary school argment), laziness and bloody-mindedness. I would happily have voluntary voting as long as it also meant you were deprived of any govt benefits like other non-citizens.

happy now?

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #132 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:22pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:36pm:

the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.

It could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have otherwise done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.

In other words, compulsory voting leads to the Anna Bligh syndrome.

If democracy includes dragging people to the poll who are only voting because they have to, then I don't care what they call it - it's over-rated.

Quote:

'others do it' (primary school argment),

It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration.

Now if you're saying that considering the position of the majority is just a primary school argument, then by implication, you imply that the argument for democracy itself is a primary school argument.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #133 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:26pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:22pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:36pm:

the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.

I could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.

In other words, compulsory voting leads to the Anna Bligh syndrome.

If democracy includes dragging people to the poll who are only voting because they have to, then I don't care what they call it - it's over-rated.

Quote:

'others do it' (primary school argment),

It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration.

Now if you're saying that considering the position of the majority is just a primary school argument, then by implication, you imply that the argument for democracy itself is a primary school argument.

why? to pose the 'mother of a primary school kid question'... would you impose the death penalty because they do?? the proper question is rather 'what about voluntary voting in these countries makes it better than ours'? since in almost every respect this country is superior to these other democracies, appealing to their experience is the opposite argument you aer trying to make.

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #134 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:31pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:22pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:36pm:

the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.

It could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have otherwise done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.

In other words, compulsory voting leads to the Anna Bligh syndrome.

If democracy includes dragging people to the poll who are only voting because they have to, then I don't care what they call it - it's over-rated.

Quote:

'others do it' (primary school argment),

It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration.

Our system is as good or better than any of them and how good is it to be different.

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Poll
Question: Do you think that compulsory voting
* This poll has now closed *
makes the system more democratic 6 (30.0%) makes the system less democratic 8 (40.0%) has no effect on democracy 6 (30.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: muso on: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm »