Australian Politics Forum - Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD

muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #135 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:34pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

KJT1981
Quote:

It is not compulsory in any other Western country

- not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?

This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.

I agree that it's inaccurate. Of course it wasn't my statement.
Quote:

Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.

... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #136 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:37pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:31pm:

Our system is as good or better than any of them and how good is it to be different.

- but not just for the sake of being different.

Our system may well be better that theirs overall. We're not discussing other aspects of their democracy. We're just talking about the issue of compulsory voting.

It's a non sequitor argument. If the police stopped you in the road and said that you had a faulty rear light, would you take offense and say - "my car is far better than yours overall" ? We're not talking about the system. We're talking about compulsory voting only.

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« Last Edit: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 6:12pm by muso »

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #137 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:45pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:26pm:

why? to pose the 'mother of a primary school kid question'... would you impose the death penalty because they do?? the proper question is rather 'what about voluntary voting in these countries makes it better than ours'? since in almost every respect this country is superior to these other democracies, appealing to their experience is the opposite argument you aer trying to make.

I wouldn't. All I said was that it was a valid reason to make it worthy of consideration.

Obviously when poiitical anaysts consider compulsory voting to be a negative in the democracy index, then we should at least sit up and start to question the status quo.

Australia is currently 8th in the Democracy Index listings. That's something to be proud of. If there is a way we can improve our democracy further, then we should certainly consider it with an open mind.

Quote:

and best of all... Democracy demands just ONE THING. just one thing. vote. and that is so damned hard for you???

I don't believe that democracy necessarily demands compulsory voting. Are you saying that the US, Canada and the UK are not democracies because they don't demand compulsory voting?

For your interest only, this is the 2012 Democracy index ranking:

1 Sweden
2. Iceland
3. Netherlands
4. Norway
5. Denmark
6. Finland
7. Luxembourg
8. Australia
9. Canada
10. Switzerland
11. Ireland
12. New Zealand
13. Germany
14. Austria
15. Malta
16. Spain
17. US
18. Czech Republic
19. Portugal
20. Belgium
21. Japan
22. Greece
23. UK
24.France
25.Mauritius
26. Costa Rica
27. Slovenia
28. Uruguay

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« Last Edit: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 6:11pm by muso »

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freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #138 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:12pm

Quote:

Actually I'll correct myself in terms of the Democracy Index. Compulsory voting reduces the Democracy index:

Muso, finding someone on the internet who agrees with you is not the same as a rational argument.

Quote:

So if among the 31 or so democracies in the world with a democratic index of 8 or above, only 2 choose to have compulsory voting, what does that say about the democratic outcome?

Nothing. If anything, compulsory voting is over-represented at the top of the list, despite the inappropriate penalty applied for it. Not that I would be silly enough to argue that it means anything.

Quote:

It's quite ironic in this kind of discussion that you should argue that a poster is using argumentum ad populum (appeal to the majority).

I never said winning an election makes you right. The truth is not democratic.

Quote:

It could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have otherwise done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.

And this from someone who claims to defend democracy?

Quote:

It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration.

For about 3 seconds, until you realise it is merely argumentum ad populum. It adds nothing to the debate. Most western countries use first past the post voting also. That does not make it a good idea. In fact is leads to clearly undemocratic outcomes, just like optional voting does. It is an excuse for the absence of a rational argument. For the most part these countries have the system they do by historical accident, and the people experienced in the machinations of these democracies advise strongly against it (with a rational argument in support).

Quote:

Now if you're saying that considering the position of the majority is just a primary school argument, then by implication, you imply that the argument for democracy itself is a primary school argument.

No Muso. We are saying that your argument is a primary school argument. You can imply anything you want, but in this case you are wrong again.

Quote:

It's a non sequitor argument. If the police stopped you in the road and said that you had a faulty rear light, would you take offense and say - "my car is far better than yours overall" ? We're not talking about the system. We're talking about compulsory voting only.

But it is you who is making that non-sequitor argument muso.

Quote:

Obviously when poiitical anaysts consider compulsory voting to be a negative in the democracy index

Argumentum ad populum. It might even be appeal to authority if you knew what was going on. Do you actually know their reason? Maybe they just saw the same half list that the critics presented here and decided to take the easy option.

Quote:

I don't believe that democracy necessarily demands compulsory voting.

No, but it does demand that people vote.

Quote:

Are you saying that the US, Canada and the UK are not democracies because they don't demand compulsory voting?

They have inferior democracies. There are clearly undemocratic outcomes associated with the flaws in their democracies.

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #139 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:27pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

KJT1981
Quote:

It is not compulsory in any other Western country

- not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?

This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.

I agree that it's inaccurate. Of course it wasn't my statement.
Quote:

Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.

... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?

And your list of democratic countries above 8 has what around 28 out of 196 what's that around 14%.

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perceptions_now

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #140 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:31pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:12pm:

I never said winning an election makes you right. The truth is not democratic.

AND, having a Politically Democratic system, does not guarantee the system is TRUTHFUL, FAIR, HONEST etc. etc!

That said, it is still the best Political system, so far, although it will be subject to some enormous stresses, over the next 20-30 years and THEREFORE it will have to change or it will be changed!

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #141 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:34pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:37pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:31pm:

Our system is as good or better than any of them and how good is it to be different.

- but not just for the sake of being different.

Our system may well be better that theirs overall. We're not discussing other aspects of their democracy. We're just talking about the issue of compulsory voting.

It's a non sequitor argument. If the police stopped you in the road and said that you had a faulty rear light, would you take offense and say - "my car is far better than yours overall" ? We're not talking about the system. We're talking about compulsory voting only.

Yet you want to bias the position with your democratic index which consideres all sorts of non related matters.

It is in itself biased against manditory voting as you pointed out.

It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

It does not really measure democracy very well at all, there is no penalty measured for failure in democratic process - The USA rates well even though they recently had an election decieded in the high court, you would expect that type of event to have thrown them out the back door.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #142 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:22pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:12pm:

And this from someone who claims to defend democracy?

I though I was defending personal freedom.
In a few minor respects I think that democracy is overrated, although its much better than the alternative. (For example, if a country is on the brink of bankruptcy and the majority of people want to continue to rort the tax system, should the wishes of the majority be paramount? )

Quote:

I never said winning an election makes you right. The truth is not democratic.

That's one of them.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #143 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:25pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:34pm:

Yet you want to bias the position with your democratic index which consideres all sorts of non related matters.

It is in itself biased against manditory voting as you pointed out.

First of all it's not my Democracy Index.
Quote:

It does not really measure democracy very well at all, there is no penalty measured for failure in democratic process - The USA rates well even though they recently had an election decieded in the high court, you would expect that type of event to have thrown them out the back door.

The US was well down that list.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49015 At my desk.	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #144 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:35pm Quote: I though I was defending personal freedom. You keep claiming that you are defending democracy. Quote: First of all it's not my Democracy Index. You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.
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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #145 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:46pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:27pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?

And your list of democratic countries above 8 has what around 28 out of 196 what's that around 14%.

The countries that have effective mandatory voting, with the exception of Australia and Luxembourg, are flawed democracies or worse. Do you disagree with that? The democracy index is not the only criterion for that determination. It's blatantly obvious.

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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5471 Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #146 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:51pm this is what dnaver said about australian democracy previously: Quote: I think the event showed that both major party's have complete control and can easily destroy any effective opposition to them.
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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #147 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:58pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:34pm:

It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #148 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:16pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

I though I was defending personal freedom.

You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

Quote:

First of all it's not my Democracy Index.

You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.

It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy. Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #149 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:44pm

JC Denton wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:51pm:

this is what dnaver said about australian democracy previously:

Quote:

I think the event showed that both major party's have complete control and can easily destroy any effective opposition to them.

You must have trolled really deep to find that and thanks for quoting me from probably over 12 months ago with absolutely no context pretty grubby effort in my opinion, I previously had a bit of respect for your view.

However it is completely true - the event I was talking about at the time was the manner in which both major parties’s conspired to irradiate One Nation.

I did not agree with almost anything One Nation stood for however their demise showed that when both Labor and Libs combine to place an opponent at the bottom of their preference list that opponent is extinct irrespective of how many votes they get.

Of course optional voting would change nothing in this regard except to weaken further any option other than the big 2.

Optional voting would very likely remove independents and alternate party's from our political landscape. People who currently do not Like Labor or the Liberals vote for a third option, if voting becomes optional more than likely they will not vote instead of voting a third option.

Removing diversity from our political mix would substantially damage our democracy in my opinion.

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« Last Edit: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:05pm by Dnarever »

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Poll
Question: Do you think that compulsory voting
* This poll has now closed *
makes the system more democratic 6 (30.0%) makes the system less democratic 8 (40.0%) has no effect on democracy 6 (30.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: muso on: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm »