Australian Politics Forum - Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD

freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #150 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:44pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

I though I was defending personal freedom.

You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

Quote:

First of all it's not my Democracy Index.

You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.

It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy. Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.

You still seem confused about whether you are defending democracy.

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #151 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:48pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:34pm:

It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.

Does the USA going about $15 Trillion into debt mean they are no longer a functioning democracy?

Every time there is a world recession does democracy go out the window?

I think that it is another false indicator in the list.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #152 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:51pm Whoever these clowns are that devised the criteria seem to have done nothing more than think up a bunch of metrics that are correlated with democracy and used them as a measure rather than bothering to think about what democracy actually means.
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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #153 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:04pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:44pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

I though I was defending personal freedom.

You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

Quote:

First of all it's not my Democracy Index.

You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.

It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy. Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.

You still seem confused about whether you are defending democracy.

I'm merely discussing the issue of compulsory versus voluntary voting.

It all hinges on your expectations of a democracy and whether you regard voting as a right or a duty.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #154 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:05pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:34pm:

It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.

Does the USA going about $15 Trillion into debt mean they are no longer a functioning democracy?

Every time there is a world recession does democracy go out the window?

I think that it is another false indicator in the list.

The US is still the biggest economy in the world regardless of recession.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #155 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:08pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:51pm:

Whoever these clowns are that devised the criteria seem to have done nothing more than think up a bunch of metrics that are correlated with democracy and used them as a measure rather than bothering to think about what democracy actually means.

Have you actually read their reports?

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #156 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:14pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:34pm:

It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.

Does the USA going about $15 Trillion into debt mean they are no longer a functioning democracy?

Every time there is a world recession does democracy go out the window?

I think that it is another false indicator in the list.

The US is still the biggest economy in the world regardless of recession.

You miss the point, in a recession the numbers calculated would show that virtually every country would have a reduced democratic index. The world would be definitivly a less democratic place.

This is obviously untrue because there is no genuine logical link between the criteria and democracy.

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freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #157 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:15pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:04pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:44pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

I though I was defending personal freedom.

You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

Quote:

First of all it's not my Democracy Index.

You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.

It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy. Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.

You still seem confused about whether you are defending democracy.

I'm merely discussing the issue of compulsory versus voluntary voting.

It all hinges on your expectations of a democracy and whether you regard voting as a right or a duty.

It sounds more like backpedaling than discussing to me.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #158 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:27pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

You miss the point, in a recession the numbers calculated would show that virtually every country would have a reduced democratic index. The world would be definitivly a less democratic place.

This is obviously untrue because there is no genuine logical link between the criteria and democracy.

You're totally missing the point. The factor that comes into play is sovereignty. Even in the deepest of recessions, there has been no question of US sovereignty. If you compare that to Greece in recent times, it becomes obvious that democratic freedom was compromised as a result of a reduction in fiscal autonomy.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #159 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:43pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:15pm:

It sounds more like backpedaling than discussing to me.

I'm getting back to the crux of the matter. It is a controversial issue that is coloured by regional concepts of democracy. For example an American might be amazed that we have no Bill of Rights or might regard compulsory voting as an infringement of personal liberty. Democracy, in its most general understanding means rule by the people, but that's as far as it goes. Beyond that definition there is a wide variation in interpretation.

The degree to which you rate civil liberties and personal freedoms, governance and security issues will have some bearing on your concept of democracy.

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freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #160 - Jan 5^th, 2013 at 10:53pm

Quote:

I'm getting back to the crux of the matter. It is a controversial issue that is coloured by regional concepts of democracy.

Regional concepts of democracy? Is that something like moral relativity?

Quote:

Democracy, in its most general understanding means rule by the people, but that's as far as it goes.

People rule in every conceivable system of government. The difference with democracy is that the majority rules. Perhaps this is what you meant by regional concepts - democracy means something different in North Korea.

Quote:

The degree to which you rate civil liberties and personal freedoms, governance and security issues will have some bearing on your concept of democracy.

No it won't. It will merely have a bearing on the degree to which you rate civil liberties and personal freedoms, governance and security issues. It will not cause you to redefine the terms just because you consider them more or less important.

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BigOl64

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #161 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 6:46am

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

KJT1981
Quote:

It is not compulsory in any other Western country

- not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?

This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.

I agree that it's inaccurate. Of course it wasn't my statement.
Quote:

Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.

... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?

Nice how none of them are 'western' democracies, south amercian dictatorships, african sh1tholes and middle eastern backwaters, all one minute from being taken over by a military coup.

Nice company we keep.

Oppressive governments drive political legitimacy from high voter turn out, why bother with basic human right when punishment produces higher numbers of voters.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #162 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 7:37am

This seems a ratehr over-the-top thread. in the end it is ONLY about voting which is at worst a minor inconvenience. compared to doing tax returns - another obligation - it is indeed trivial Our democractic freedoms require a lot of things from us. The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile. there is no such thing.

The day that voting is too onerous a duty to comprehend is the day you have totally lost the plot.

I presume you consider the obligation to pay your bills to be a breach of your fundamental rights. Voting is just the same - paying your bill for the democracy you live in.

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #163 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 8:20am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 7:37am:

This seems a ratehr over-the-top thread. in the end it is ONLY about voting which is at worst a minor inconvenience. compared to doing tax returns - another obligation - it is indeed trivial Our democractic freedoms require a lot of things from us. The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile. there is no such thing.

The day that voting is too onerous a duty to comprehend is the day you have totally lost the plot.

I presume you consider the obligation to pay your bills to be a breach of your fundamental rights. Voting is just the same - paying your bill for the democracy you live in.

It's not about people being too lazy to vote. It's a matter of choice, we are not given a choice.

I would love nothing better than to tick the box

"None of the above"

but I don't get a choice because our pollies are too afraid of the truth, they expect us to vote for one or the other, which is forcing the issue.

Don't start with the old rant about being able to vote for any of the candidates in my electorate, the vote inevitably goes back to libs or labor.

I will vote when I get to officially vote for none of them.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #164 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:43am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 7:37am:

This seems a ratehr over-the-top thread. in the end it is ONLY about voting which is at worst a minor inconvenience. compared to doing tax returns - another obligation - it is indeed trivial Our democractic freedoms require a lot of things from us. The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile. there is no such thing.

In the US, they would probably say that choosing whether or not to vote is part of their democratic freedom.

Quote:

The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile.

Correct, but irrelevant. The issue is about compulsory voting, nothing else.

"It's a matter of democratic freedom whether you vote or not"

It's a position held with many Americans. Now, are you saying that's an infantile view?

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Poll
Question: Do you think that compulsory voting
* This poll has now closed *
makes the system more democratic 6 (30.0%) makes the system less democratic 8 (40.0%) has no effect on democracy 6 (30.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: muso on: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm »