Australian Politics Forum - Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD

freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #165 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:46am

Quote:

Nice how none of them are 'western' democracies, south amercian dictatorships, african sh1tholes and middle eastern backwaters, all one minute from being taken over by a military coup.

Oh dear. He still isn't even aware of the rest of the list.

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It's not about people being too lazy to vote. It's a matter of choice, we are not given a choice.

I would love nothing better than to tick the box

"None of the above"

Pansi, you can always write that box on the ballot paper and tick it. Or draw a picture of a donkey. So there you go, you have that choice.

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but I don't get a choice because our pollies are too afraid of the truth, they expect us to vote for one or the other, which is forcing the issue.

When was the last time there were only two candidates on your ballot paper?

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Don't start with the old rant about being able to vote for any of the candidates in my electorate, the vote inevitably goes back to libs or labor.

Pansi, this is because it is nearly always Liberal or Labor that gets elected. This does not mean you do not have a choice to vote for other candidates. It merely means that they lose because they are unpopular. If it helps, instead of thinking of it as preferential voting, think of it as a series of runoff elections. This is how most foreigners refer to our system - instant runoff voting. It makes a lot more sense and helps avoid some of this confusion about what your vote means.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49015 At my desk.	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #166 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:48am Quote: "It's a matter of democratic freedom whether you vote or not" Making up new terms now eh? Quote: It's a position held with many Americans. Now, are you saying that's an infantile view? It is infantile to make up new terms in order to validate your argument.
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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #167 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:52am

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

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I though I was defending personal freedom.

You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

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First of all it's not my Democracy Index.

You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.

It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy. Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.

Freedom of the press

What about examples like the current Australia where we have a commercial press trying to drive the outcome of elections?

Do the press not then become an anti democratic force?

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58507 Here Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #168 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:57am I would think that of the people who support optional voting under ten percent would be driven by their belief on democracy and over ninety percent would be interested because they perceive an advantage for their political preference.
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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #169 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:58am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 6:46am:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?

Nice how none of them are 'western' democracies, south amercian dictatorships, african sh1tholes and middle eastern backwaters, all one minute from being taken over by a military coup.

Nice company we keep.

Oppressive governments drive political legitimacy from high voter turn out, why bother with basic human right when punishment produces higher numbers of voters.

Exactly. By the way, do you know what Singapore does if a person doesn't vote? They remove them from the register. Grin

Kinda defeats the purpose.

Highlighted section - Apart from Luxembourg - and Belgium if you go back to pre 2003.

It's also interesting that many countries which used to have compulsory voting have subsequently dropped it, in some cases when they became legitimate democracies. These are:

Austria(1925), The Netherlands(1970), Spain(1923), Venezuela(1993) and Chile (2009).

We should look at their reasons for doing so.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #170 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:01am

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:48am:

Quote:

"It's a matter of democratic freedom whether you vote or not"

Making up new terms now eh?

Quote:

It's a position held with many Americans. Now, are you saying that's an infantile view?

It is infantile to make up new terms in order to validate your argument.

It's hardly new. The US constitution predates that of Australia.

Hang on - are you saying that I made up the term Democratic Freedom? It's a term that has been in use since the days of Thomas Jefferson.

Here's an example of where Democratic Freedom is discussed. Do you think that Hawaii University is infantile now? It's a pretty standard term.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WF.CHAP3.HTM

Here are 15,600 University sites where the term Democratic Freedom is used.
http://www.google.com.au/search?as_q=&as_epq=democratic+freedom&as_oq=&as_eq=&as...

There are 650 results for "Democratic Freedom" from .edu.au

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« Last Edit: Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:15am by muso »

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freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #171 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:12am

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Do the press not then become an anti democratic force?

So long as there is diversity in the press it should not matter so much. The internet is starting to provide that now, I hope. However the downside is that the internet makes news even less profitable, so we may end up with fewer 'professional' news providers.

Quote:

It's hardly new. The US constitution predates that of Australia.

Somehow I doubt their constitution uses such a vague and meaningless term. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by 'democratic freedom' and how it is relevant?

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #172 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:17am

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:12am:

Quote:

It's hardly new. The US constitution predates that of Australia.

Somehow I doubt their constitution uses such a vague and meaningless term. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by 'democratic freedom' and how it is relevant?

I expanded on the post while you were posting. It's hardly a vague and meaningless term as you can see. Heck, it's a term that was even used by Aristotle.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49015 At my desk.	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #173 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:35am You expanded on the use of the term, but said nothing at all about what it means. Do you know what those other people meant by the term? Did you intend to imply any meaning, beyond equating democracy and freedom?
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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #174 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:04am

It means the difference between a "liberal democracy" and an "electoral democracy". A purely electoral democracy without the freedom is a democracy in name only. It goes through the motions of electing representatives.

We live in a liberal democracy, which means that we have certain democratic freedoms such as Freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to form political parties.... etc

Some of these freedoms are not legislated in Australia, but they exist nonetheless.

Quote:

Did you intend to imply any meaning, beyond equating democracy and freedom?

Now who's using primary school arguments? Of course they are different, but they are concepts that go hand in hand.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49015 At my desk.	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #175 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:18am Is the concept relevant to compulsory voting in any way?
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gold_medal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3897 Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #176 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am just vote you lazy buggers... You'd think you were being asked to do something onerous. it is the price you pay for democracy.
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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #177 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:54am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

just vote you lazy buggers... You'd think you were being asked to do something onerous. it is the price you pay for democracy.

The problem is there is no candidate worth my vote.

Put up a respectable, honest, transparent politician and I'll vote for them, ten times even. I refuse to vote for bad and badder

Having a system where people turn up and tick the first name on the box is stupid.

Better still, have a referendum where I get to vote on compulsory/non-compulsory voting and I will vote ten times.

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freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #178 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:57am

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The problem is there is no candidate worth my vote.

Voting is not a measure of worth pansi. You are only asked to give a relative rating, not an endorsement.

You cannot choose to not have a government just because you disapprove of the candidates who are running, so it would be absurd to put that option on the ballot.

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buzzanddidj

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #179 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:57am

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters

IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy

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Poll
Question: Do you think that compulsory voting
* This poll has now closed *
makes the system more democratic 6 (30.0%) makes the system less democratic 8 (40.0%) has no effect on democracy 6 (30.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: muso on: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm »