Australian Politics Forum - Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD

gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #210 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:08pm

muso wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:30pm:

I still dont get why you lazy sods find the concept of voting such an unfair obligation? does it stretch your tiny minds to omuch to have to actually make a decision? Or is the problem that you are so self-centred that voting - which is about the larger picture - is of no interest to you?

The argument of being onerous is ridiculous.

WHo made that argument? Whose argument are you countering here? I may be wrong, but nobody has made the argument that it is onerous as far as I am aware. Did somebody here say "damn, it's such a burden having to vote?" and I missed it?

Quote:

the argument from other countries is pitifiul since by almost every measuer we are better than the vast amjority

Again, it's a non sequitor. Most people would not consider the issue of compulsory voting to be central to any measure of being "better" or "worse". Would you? I certainly wouldn't.

so the reason for not wanting to vote is not more than that it is compulsory??? Ive seen no one come up with an even half-way meaningul reason for not voting. So far laziness is the main opinion being offered.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #211 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:12pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters

IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy

the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.

Who said ALL ?

It has been WELL documented as FACT in the UK
I lived with a household of Labour campaigners at the time of Thatcher's first election win
They all prayed for good weather on election day, as traditional Labour voters were LESS likely to own a motor vehicle - therefore LESS likely to vote if it was a sh!t of a day, outside
A small percentage - mind you - but a small percentage is generally what makes ( ... or breaks) a government

Of people who DO work on Saturdays ( ... retail shop assistants, hospitality workers, building industry, etc. ) ...

Do you think they'd be more likely to for the ALP or the LibNats ?

( ... bear in mind, their partners are ALSO tied up all day Saturday - at home with young kids)

The above is VERIFIED by general RIGHT wing support for non-compulsory voting - and general LEFT wing opposition - the world over

do you really want to claim that labor supporters are less likely to own a car??? it might have been true in the economic cot-case that was Thatchers Britian but in australia today the household without a car would be an extremely rare sight.

and it was only last decade that at least one state labor govt considered voluntary voting but got cold feet because there was no comclusive evidience which side it woudl advantage. Naturally, of course the notion of good vs bad never entered into it.

You argument is out of date.

BTW I support compulsory voting even though I suspect voluntary voting would advantage the Libs. Thats becaue I find most nominally labor supporters to be lazy disinterested dopes more likely to be sleeping one off on a sat morning than voting.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #212 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:40pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:08pm:

so the reason for not wanting to vote is not more than that it is compulsory??? Ive seen no one come up with an even half-way meaningul reason for not voting. So far laziness is the main opinion being offered.

You're obviously not reading the arguments I put forward.

Pansi also said that it was a question of individual choice and had nothing to do with laziness.

To say that anybody here put forward an argument relating to laziness is just plain lazy.

It shows that you're not even reading the posts. I'd summarise but you probably wouldn't read that either.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #213 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:49pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

If you're talking about the poll, it shows that most people think that compulsory voting makes the system less democratic or or makes no difference to democracy.

Yes Muso that is what I meant by undermining democracy.

So you believe that the current system of compulsory voting undermines democracy?

Fair enough, but it's a major turnaround for you. Personally, I think it makes only a marginal difference if any.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #214 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:59pm

muso wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:40pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:08pm:

so the reason for not wanting to vote is not more than that it is compulsory??? Ive seen no one come up with an even half-way meaningul reason for not voting. So far laziness is the main opinion being offered.

You're obviously not reading the arguments I put forward.

Pansi also said that it was a question of individual choice and had nothing to do with laziness.

To say that anybody here put forward an argument relating to laziness is just plain lazy.

It shows that you're not even reading the posts. I'd summarise but you probably wouldn't read that either.

Im staying with 'lazy' as the domininant reason. Ive read the so-called arguments and they are pitiful. Since when was 'choice' a issue in the major activities of a democracy? there are a hell of a lot of other things i would 'choose' not to do long before voting so how does voting get a mention? Would you choose to pay taxes if it were voluntary?

nope. I will stay with laziness or bloody-mindedness. Nothing else fits the argument given how pititifully small the duty to vote is.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #215 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:06pm

Quote:

Since when was 'choice' a issue in the major activities of a democracy?

Choice is another way of saying freedom, and freedom is a big ticket issue in any democracy. Virtually every other major industrialised country is concerned about democratic freedom and the advantage of a "liberal democracy" over an electoral democracy.

Of course FD hadn't heard of "Democratic Freedom" either. He accused me of making the term up. He obviously hasn't read Thomas Jefferson or Aristotle for that matter. Maybe that's why he changed his mind when I explained it to him.

Democracy is concerned with a great many more things than the detail of an electoral system. You can have the best electoral system in the world, but if it doesn't provide basic democratic freedoms then it's a token democracy.

We are lucky in this country, simply because (unlike FD) some people do understand the concept of democratic freedom, and our democracy is a pretty good one.

Quite frankly, I think there are bigger fish to fry than compulsory voting. At least we've moved to optional preferential voting for some elections in Queensland. It's a step in the right direction, but that's a different subject.

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« Last Edit: Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:17pm by muso »

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #216 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:30pm

muso wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:06pm:

Quote:

Since when was 'choice' a issue in the major activities of a democracy?

Choice is another way of saying freedom, and freedom is a big ticket issue in any democracy. Virtually every other major industrialised country is concerned about democratic freedom and the advantage of a "liberal democracy" over an electoral democracy.

Of course FD hadn't heard of "Democratic Freedom" either. He accused me of making the term up. He obviously hasn't read Thomas Jefferson or Aristotle for that matter. Maybe that's why he changed his mind when I explained it to him.

Democracy is concerned with a great many more things than the detail of an electoral system. You can have the best electoral system in the world, but if it doesn't provide basic democratic freedoms then it's a token democracy.

We are lucky in this country, simply because (unlike FD) some people do understand the concept of democratic freedom, and our democracy is a pretty good one.

Quite frankly, I think there are bigger fish to fry than compulsory voting. At least we've moved to optional preferential voting for some elections in Queensland. It's a step in the right direction, but that's a different subject.

that's pretty much my entire point. I cant see how the question of compulsory voting even makes it to anyone's agenda. of all the things you are required to do that you find unpleasant, onerous or even just plain unfair, does voting make the top 100? The price of home ownership is maintenance and I don't particulalry like it. Doesn't mean I think it is unreasonable to make me do it. The price of democracy is voting and I don't care one jot if you like it or not. It is part of the price of living in arguably the worlds most stable and democratic country.

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« Last Edit: Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:40pm by gold_medal »

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buzzanddidj

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #217 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:46pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 7:12am:

I am moving back to England this year and this will be the last move for some time now.

I have to go to Europe it's where my family are, hence the twice yearly flight is a killer in both cost and distance.

Unless you fly China Eastern which I really don't recommend.

SPEAKING of good airlines ...

Quote:

Last year, Time magazine declared Totnes the capital of new age chic. Then, just last month, Highlife
, the British Airways
magazine, declared it third of the world's Top 10 Funky Towns, alongside Daylesford (1) in Victoria and Tiradentes (2) in Brazil.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/may/08/britishidentity.ethicalliving

... which was interesting, surprising, good & bad
I wasn't aware the typical British Airways patron would have even HEARD of my little hamlet, let alone declare it #1 in the world - in the "funky" department

But, in reality, we're chasing the Japanese and newly cashed up Chinese tourist dollars
They NEVER expect spotted dick, toad in the hole - and Sainsbury's Salad Cream, in our world class restaurants - and don't mind parting with a yuan - or yen - or two

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Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

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freediver

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #218 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm

Quote:

You're obviously not reading the arguments I put forward.

You mean the ones that seem to rely on finding ever more elaborate ways to mangle the definitions of democracy and freedom?

Quote:

Pansi also said that it was a question of individual choice and had nothing to do with laziness.

I think that even she claimed to be 'unable' to tell the major aprties apart.

Quote:

So you believe that the current system of compulsory voting undermines democracy?

No Muso, the opposite.

Quote:

Personally, I think it makes only a marginal difference if any.

You are confusing the short term and long term outcomes. These saorts of flaws reinforce each other. The US is a good example. They very few minor parties and independents. The main reason being that people who would actually support them vote for the major parties so as not to 'waste their vote.' This not only results in poor electoral outcomes for minor parties - eventually they either cease to exist, or are so diminished in a political sense they may as well not be there, which of course reinforces people's unwuillingness to vote for them. Likewise, optional voting will not result in the same two major parties putting more focus on preaching to the converted and winding up the highly excitable minorities from their own side of the spectrum. It will eventually result in two fundamentally different major parties that do this.

Quote:

Choice is another way of saying freedom

You do not have a choice as to whether there is a government, so claiming that you don't like the choices offered on the ballot is rpetty meaningless. You still end up with one of them. There is no 'anarchy' box to tick.

Quote:

and freedom is a big ticket issue in any democracy

There you go, trying to conflate the two issues again. You still haven't explained how this issue is relevant to 'democratic freedom'. Did you just throw that in because it was a nice sounding buzzword?

Quote:

Virtually every other major industrialised country is concerned about democratic freedom and the advantage of a "liberal democracy" over an electoral democracy.

Muso haven't you just been explaining how silly this appeal to foreign countries is?

Quote:

Democracy is concerned with a great many more things than the detail of an electoral system.

Democracy means rule of the majority. Nothing more. You have even attempted to argue that it means as little as rule by 'the people'.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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buzzanddidj Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 14192 Eganstown, via Daylesford, VIC Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #219 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:15pm Bobby. wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:03pm: It's right that people should vote but it's still a pain in the arse. An hour of your time - once every three years - is a "pain in the arse" in determining the future of your country ?
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buzzanddidj

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #220 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:32pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters

IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy

the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.

Who said ALL ?

It has been WELL documented as FACT in the UK
I lived with a household of Labour campaigners at the time of Thatcher's first election win
They all prayed for good weather on election day, as traditional Labour voters were LESS likely to own a motor vehicle - therefore LESS likely to vote if it was a sh!t of a day, outside
A small percentage - mind you - but a small percentage is generally what makes ( ... or breaks) a government

Of people who DO work on Saturdays ( ... retail shop assistants, hospitality workers, building industry, etc. ) ...

Do you think they'd be more likely to for the ALP or the LibNats ?

( ... bear in mind, their partners are ALSO tied up all day Saturday - at home with young kids)

The above is VERIFIED by general RIGHT wing support for non-compulsory voting - and general LEFT wing opposition - the world over

do you really want to claim that labor supporters are less likely to own a car???

YES - I DO - and I CAN

You and I mix in VERY different circles & demographics

I don't just pray for the poor - from a safe distance - in the Adelaide Hills
I mix among them - and call them my friends

Many of these friends have found car ownership financially out of the question in the past
Some of them still do NOW

If you collected a random sample of 100 non car owners, due to financial restrictions - how many do you think would be Liberal Party voters ?

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'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #221 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:52pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

Quote:

So you believe that the current system of compulsory voting undermines democracy?

No Muso, the opposite.

I would take a close look at the poll again then. I have a feeling that you voted the wrong way around based on your previous interpretation of the results.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #222 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 6:01pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:32pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters

IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy

the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.

Who said ALL ?

It has been WELL documented as FACT in the UK
I lived with a household of Labour campaigners at the time of Thatcher's first election win
They all prayed for good weather on election day, as traditional Labour voters were LESS likely to own a motor vehicle - therefore LESS likely to vote if it was a sh!t of a day, outside
A small percentage - mind you - but a small percentage is generally what makes ( ... or breaks) a government

Of people who DO work on Saturdays ( ... retail shop assistants, hospitality workers, building industry, etc. ) ...

Do you think they'd be more likely to for the ALP or the LibNats ?

( ... bear in mind, their partners are ALSO tied up all day Saturday - at home with young kids)

The above is VERIFIED by general RIGHT wing support for non-compulsory voting - and general LEFT wing opposition - the world over

do you really want to claim that labor supporters are less likely to own a car???

YES - I DO - and I CAN

You and I mix in VERY different circles & demographics

I don't just pray for the poor - from a safe distance - in the Adelaide Hills
I mix among them - and call them my friends

Many of these friends have found car ownership financially out of the question in the past
Some of them still do NOW

If you collected a random sample of 100 non car owners, due to financial restrictions - how many do you think would be Liberal Party voters ?

one car per household... I defy you to easily find 100 of them. car ownership is as ubiquitous as the mobile phone. everyone has them. i doubt very much that they are anything like a significant portion of the community. Ive worked with a lot of poor people too. they all seem to have access to a car - usually a peice of crap, but a car nonethesess.

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muso

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #223 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 6:04pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

[
Muso haven't you just been explaining how silly this appeal to foreign countries is?

In a discussion about democratic systems, it makes sense to discuss democracies - and not just one. It's actually more that a bit silly to take the tunnel vision approach - the "No! I refuse to look at any other system except Australia's" approach.

Now you're using the appeal to logical fallacies fallacy.

It's a bit hackneyed.

- and now "Democratic Freedom" is an irrelevant term regardless of how many universities teach the subject.

Well I've got another fallacy for you - the "discarding unfavorable data fallacy." It's a sure fire way of winning arguments. (but you know that already)

Quote:

It will eventually result in two fundamentally different major parties that do this.

The evidence so far doesn't back up this assertion. If anything, the prevailing trend in the last US Election was one of the Republicans and Democrats becoming closer in terms of policy.

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« Last Edit: Jan 6^th, 2013 at 6:10pm by muso »

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #224 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 6:24pm

muso wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 6:04pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

[
Muso haven't you just been explaining how silly this appeal to foreign countries is?

In a discussion about democratic systems, it makes sense to discuss democracies - and not just one. It's actually more that a bit silly to take the tunnel vision approach - the "No! I refuse to look at any other system except Australia's" approach.

Now you're using the appeal to logical fallacies fallacy.

It's a bit hackneyed.

- and now "Democratic Freedom" is an irrelevant term regardless of how many universities teach the subject.

Well I've got another fallacy for you - the "discarding unfavorable data fallacy." It's a sure fire way of winning arguments. (but you know that already)

Quote:

It will eventually result in two fundamentally different major parties that do this.

The evidence so far doesn't back up this assertion. If anything, the prevailing trend in the last US Election was one of the Republicans and Democrats becoming closer in terms of policy.

imagein compulsory voting in the US. they'd have to set up electoral systems that worked properly and had consistent laws, required oversight etc. and the parties themsevels woudl be free to develop polcieis for the entire country instead of bussing in voters on election day from districts that support them.

The USA is a perfect example of why voluntary voting dilutes the democratic principle.

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Poll
Question: Do you think that compulsory voting
* This poll has now closed *
makes the system more democratic 6 (30.0%) makes the system less democratic 8 (40.0%) has no effect on democracy 6 (30.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: muso on: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm »