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Poll closed Poll
Question: Do you think that compulsory voting
*** This poll has now closed ***


makes the system more democratic    
  6 (30.0%)
makes the system less democratic    
  8 (40.0%)
has no effect on democracy    
  6 (30.0%)




Total votes: 20
« Created by: muso on: Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:45pm »

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Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD (Read 94351 times)
Ex Dame Pansi
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #255 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:31pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:07pm:
Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:22am:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm:
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.


You must like the Chineese political systen then if it is producing such good results?

Are you saying that democracy is over rated?

I can not see any relivant connection between WiFi, cleanliness, the Chineese political ragime and manditory voting.

With optional v's manditory voting the major consideration in Australia relates directly to the number of tooth paste brands available and their flaviours, this to me looks like a different way of expressing what you are saying.



Disappointing I have to point out the correlation here.

Aussies are apathetic, lazy and as a result just accept things - be it bad service, be it nanny state interference or be it being told to vote and fined if you don't.

The fact that I come to Australia and can't bet online whereas every other country in the world I have been to lately I can shows you are a nanny state.
My dad said last year when he came back from Australia "what's happened to the place. Now its don't do this, don't do that, you can't do this, can't do that. They have laws and rules for everything now and fines with it!"

Now on my comparison of strolling around China, both Beijing and Hong Kong this week. Frankly the level of service in Australia compared to the Chinese is embarrassing.
The Chinese have people on hand to help with anything, they are polite, courteous, they go out of their way to help, they staff their places correctly and the place is spotless.

Now the fact Aussies put up with being told to vote and being fined if you don't shows a level of apathy.
That level is obvious by the fact a developing world nation has standards far in excess of Australia's.

WiFi was merely the example.
The speed and cost of China's sh*ts all over the crap I got in Australia.

Are you not suitably embarrassed a developing nation is leaving you behind?

It is all interlinked. You accept being bullied to vote, you accept nanny state and you accept bad service.

You are your own worst enemies.

Still pay to use another bank's ATM?
That was taken out in the UK within 2 weeks of implementation because of customer outrage?
Australia? Nah, we'll pay it.



I agree with you, although you have always been quick to denigrate China, but now you've seen it for yourself as a modern new world, it seems you have changed your opinion. Human rights abuses aside, they will sort that out eventually, after all we've taken 200 years and we still have a bad reputation.

That's what I've been saying all along, the East is the new West. We've spent all our money now, so we can't advance at the rate they are, not that we ever did when the time was right and we had the money to do it.

The service is bad here, that's why I holiday in Asia, and you get more bang for your buck. You can stay for a week in a five star for what it costs for one night here.

We do seem to take being ripped off by banks as a given. The banks are laughing....all the way to the bank  Smiley
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andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....
 
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #256 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:33pm
 
This is my first visit to China and I am incredibly impressed.
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Ex Dame Pansi
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #257 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:42pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:07pm:
Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:22am:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm:
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.


You must like the Chineese political systen then if it is producing such good results?

Are you saying that democracy is over rated?

I can not see any relivant connection between WiFi, cleanliness, the Chineese political ragime and manditory voting.

With optional v's manditory voting the major consideration in Australia relates directly to the number of tooth paste brands available and their flaviours, this to me looks like a different way of expressing what you are saying.



Disappointing I have to point out the correlation here.

Aussies are apathetic, lazy and as a result just accept things - be it bad service, be it nanny state interference or be it being told to vote and fined if you don't.

The fact that I come to Australia and can't bet online whereas every other country in the world I have been to lately I can shows you are a nanny state.
My dad said last year when he came back from Australia "what's happened to the place. Now its don't do this, don't do that, you can't do this, can't do that. They have laws and rules for everything now and fines with it!"

Now on my comparison of strolling around China, both Beijing and Hong Kong this week. Frankly the level of service in Australia compared to the Chinese is embarrassing.
The Chinese have people on hand to help with anything, they are polite, courteous, they go out of their way to help, they staff their places correctly and the place is spotless.

Now the fact Aussies put up with being told to vote and being fined if you don't shows a level of apathy.
That level is obvious by the fact a developing world nation has standards far in excess of Australia's.

WiFi was merely the example.
The speed and cost of China's sh*ts all over the crap I got in Australia.

Are you not suitably embarrassed a developing nation is leaving you behind?

It is all interlinked. You accept being bullied to vote, you accept nanny state and you accept bad service.

You are your own worst enemies.

Still pay to use another bank's ATM?
That was taken out in the UK within 2 weeks of implementation because of customer outrage?
Australia? Nah, we'll pay it.



Ha! you are going to get hooked with Asia, I can see it coming. Nice trendy, cosmopolitan cities with happy servants, sounds right up your ally, Andrei. Get a job and stay a while, why don't you. Pay won't compare, but cost of living is a bonus.
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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....
 
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muso
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #258 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:29pm:
Quote:
It's relevant because freedom and democracy go hand in hand. Without freedom, you can't have an effective democracy. Politics 101.


Without some freedoms you can't, eg freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. But none of those freedoms are relevant to compulsory voting. Denying people the right to not vote does not undermine democracy in the same way that denying people the right to run for office does. It is irrelevant.

Perhaps you have a more substantial argument than 'things going hand in hand'? If you do, now would be the time.


Didn't you check my previous post? I'm not going to retype it.

It might be a minor freedom (the freedom to choose whether or not to vote) and one that doesn't make a whole lot of difference when compared to the freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. 

In fact it's a small, almost indiscernable, erosion of our freedom, but when you compound all the other small indiscernable erosions of our freedom that come with the nanny state, a lot of "insignificants" make a significant.  To provide an analogy, that tiny drip in the Dutch sea dyke may well turn into a gushing torrent. Nobody likes dripping dykes.  Tongue

We have no guaranteed freedom of speech in Australia. No Bill of Rights as they have in the US. OK, the US is certainly no paragon of democratic freedom, but there are still one or two things that they do well.
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muso
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #259 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:39pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:22pm:
We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines

Mobile phone networks are built in a honeycomb cell structure where frequencies are re used at specifit intervals. If you up the power of a reciever you could interfere with cells using the same frequency.


The same thing applies all over the world. We're talking about very low power repeaters for use in offices where phone reception is marginal. They are installed indoors.  They have absolutely no effect on cells, and they are used to good effect in the UK, Europe, Russia, the US, China and even New Zealand. You can buy them from NZ as long as you sign a statement that they will not be installed in Australia.

Having said that, it is a great thing to come home to Australia. I remember being really annoyed at a cafe in the UK because so many things on the menu were not available, and nobody had bothered to mark them as unavailable.  Our cafes and restaurants are generally of a higher standard, but on my last trip to the UK, I was impressed that they are starting to pick up.

France is often regarded as having a good standard when it comes to foods, but the eateries at  CDG Paris are pathetic, based on my experience. There was even one assistant telling us that it was lamb, and another saying that it was veal. It was straight out of Fawlty Towers, like most of the small hotels in that country. 

So I'm not knocking Australia. I'm just saying that we should be receptive to ways that we can change for the better.   
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freediver
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #260 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 10:23pm
 
Here is the link to the discussion paper. For some reason it was almost impossible to google.

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/corporate/community-consultation/community-consult...

Quote:
In fact it's a small, almost indiscernable, erosion of our freedom, but when you compound all the other small indiscernable erosions of our freedom that come with the nanny state, a lot of "insignificants" make a significant.  To provide an analogy, that tiny drip in the Dutch sea dyke may well turn into a gushing torrent. Nobody likes dripping dykes.


Muso, I was not asking how it is relevant to freedom. I was asking how it is relevant to democracy.
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #261 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 11:23pm
 
this is a thought-provoking topic.....

using the 'Democracy Index' as provided by Muso.....

Australia and Belgium,  (and one other?)
of countries with mandatory voting

out of many others,  are the only ones that could be considered 'developed nations'. I'd say if you checked other indica, mostly, we would remain relatively close , and high , in the order.

I don't think that means compulsory voting is a negative thing.
The fact that many nations 'in inter-necine conflict' want people to vote, by law, surely points to a desire to put power in the hands of the people. Thats a positive, because the people are aware that they have a right to contribute, and will look harshly on attempts to subvert that right..

  Sure Sure autocrats and dictators embrace it,  because they are relatively outside of control, and so can torture and force an election result. But these are not necessarily a rule, rather an exception.

Essentially ... they 'll lose... after lots of bloodshed... perhaps... but that's not down to whether its compulsory to vote, or not...its down to lust for power.

  But that applies in Voluntary voting states as well. Bet there are stats to show it , too. Bet there are plenty of nations with voluntary voting, or NO voting at all,  that are currently engaged in some conflict or other.
Is that a better democracy?

I begin to think that the term 'democracy' is a word with many meanings...


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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #262 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 1:41am
 
Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:42pm:
Ha! you are going to get hooked with Asia, I can see it coming. Nice trendy, cosmopolitan cities with happy servants, sounds right up your ally, Andrei. Get a job and stay a while, why don't you. Pay won't compare, but cost of living is a bonus.


My parents lived in Hong Kong (many decades back now) when dad had to work out of there but my knowledge of Asia is reasonably limited - of that I admit.

My opinion does hold though Pansi on a fair few places in SE Asia, which do need a fair bit of work on numerous fronts.

However, speaking as I find, of the People's Republic (again using their broadband here.... Wink) I have to say they have so many things right where Australia has it wrong.

Customer Service
Technical advancement
Manners
Cleanliness (Beijing is spotless it really is)
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)

In general, China is fantastic - both Hong Kong (who remain keen to point out they are HK Chinese) and Beijing itself.

Top marks from me.
Would I work here?
I need a bit more experience to answer, but right now I would say I see no reason to say no.

It does shame us in Australia that we can't match them in the most simple of things.
WiFi was only an example I gave but compare what they have here v Aussies get.
Chalk and well, its not even cheese, more like gone-off cheese.
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Ex Dame Pansi
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #263 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am
 
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....
 
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #264 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:39am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:33pm:
This is my first visit to China and I am incredibly impressed.


the google tianemen square and see what you get. Or Falun Gong...

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #265 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:45am
 
muso wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:29pm:
Quote:
It's relevant because freedom and democracy go hand in hand. Without freedom, you can't have an effective democracy. Politics 101.


Without some freedoms you can't, eg freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. But none of those freedoms are relevant to compulsory voting. Denying people the right to not vote does not undermine democracy in the same way that denying people the right to run for office does. It is irrelevant.

Perhaps you have a more substantial argument than 'things going hand in hand'? If you do, now would be the time.


Didn't you check my previous post? I'm not going to retype it.

It might be a minor freedom (the freedom to choose whether or not to vote) and one that doesn't make a whole lot of difference when compared to the freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. 

In fact it's a small, almost indiscernable, erosion of our freedom, but when you compound all the other small indiscernable erosions of our freedom that come with the nanny state, a lot of "insignificants" make a significant.  To provide an analogy, that tiny drip in the Dutch sea dyke may well turn into a gushing torrent. Nobody likes dripping dykes.  Tongue

We have no guaranteed freedom of speech in Australia. No Bill of Rights as they have in the US. OK, the US is certainly no paragon of democratic freedom, but there are still one or two things that they do well.



Yet ironically, the US has less freedom of speech than we do. Theor Bill of Rights allows them many things including the right to be spied on by their govt without cause. My point is that unfortunately, a Bill of Rights and even a constitution ultimately guarantees nothing. The way our society is run  is what actually guarantees these rights. Chinas constitution - like USSR before it - guaranteed religious freedom and look how that turned out?

If we want freedom then we need to demand it in a practical way at every opportunity. Demanding a Bill of Rights or constiutional ammendement is not the way and is in effect the way to get LESS freedom. A codified freedom of speech will always be less than a generally understood and accepted one. A bill of Rights is as much a statement of what ISNT a right as what is. To this end, I like the way it is now. It might seem more risky and perhaps is, but in the washup it is still remarkably more free than most other places.

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #266 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am
 
Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.



multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.
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Ex Dame Pansi
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #267 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am
 
gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:
Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.



multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?
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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....
 
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #268 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:13am
 
gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:
multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.


So the reason why this country is sh*tting all over the Aussies for service and quality is what then??

Like I said, people on hand to help me, polite and friendly at all times.

Not to mention safety, I walked through the centre of the capital city as safe as anything with police around keeping order.
Walk through the middle of Melbourne and Sydney on a saturday night and compare.

Sorry but Australia can learn a lot from a developing country - how sad is that?
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #269 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:17am
 
gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:39am:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:33pm:
This is my first visit to China and I am incredibly impressed.


the google tianemen square and see what you get. Or Falun Gong...



I have never been in the business of going to somebody's country and insulting the hosts.

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