Australian Politics Forum - Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD

BigOl64

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #300 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 3:59pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:53am:

as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.

Try discussing freedoms and human rights in the context of anyone of the many modern European countries, I think you'll find they run rings around Australia at every level of democracy.

Judging by the latest amendment to Australia's anti-discrimination laws where a person can be gaoled for hurting someone's feels even if the conversation was merely overheard and not directed at the aggrieved party. Gotta be happy that, hey longy.

firstly, it ISNT law nor is it even debated legislation. It is nothing more than a proposed idea that has been rejected by almost everyone and you are using a worst-case scenario. And your bleating about how good Europe is in human rights is a little silly since they are the home of the anti-discrimination legislation you hate so much.

sorry proposed legislation.

The fact they (the government) would even think about such draconian legislation is pause for concern, but we have meekly accepted bad legislation for 'our own good' in the past, why should this be any different.

Don't recall bleating about how good Europe is, probably mentioned it mostly as a counter the never ending use of the US as the absolute outcome for any argument, human rights, voting, gun control, you name it the US will be the only comparison given. It's like there are only two countries in the world, Aus & the US. Try using the European experience next time you want to argue against human rights and basic freedoms. Sh1t I'll even accept NZ, the UK or Canada as a comparison. But the constant use of the US shows just how weak the anti-human rights argument is.

BTW before you get your panties all bunched up, when I say human rights I mean codified human rights, just like I have for the past 5 years.

Also I never at any time stated any hatred for the anti discrimination legislation, European or Australian, so nice accusation, but total bullsh1t.

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BigOl64 Gold Member Offline Posts: 14438 Townsville QLD Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #301 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:00pm double post
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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #302 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:39pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:53am:

as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.

Try discussing freedoms and human rights in the context of anyone of the many modern European countries, I think you'll find they run rings around Australia at every level of democracy.

Judging by the latest amendment to Australia's anti-discrimination laws where a person can be gaoled for hurting someone's feels even if the conversation was merely overheard and not directed at the aggrieved party. Gotta be happy that, hey longy.

firstly, it ISNT law nor is it even debated legislation. It is nothing more than a proposed idea that has been rejected by almost everyone and you are using a worst-case scenario. And your bleating about how good Europe is in human rights is a little silly since they are the home of the anti-discrimination legislation you hate so much.

sorry proposed legislation.

The fact they (the government) would even think about such draconian legislation is pause for concern, but we have meekly accepted bad legislation for 'our own good' in the past, why should this be any different.

Don't recall bleating about how good Europe is, probably mentioned it mostly as a counter the never ending use of the US as the absolute outcome for any argument, human rights, voting, gun control, you name it the US will be the only comparison given. It's like there are only two countries in the world, Aus & the US. Try using the European experience next time you want to argue against human rights and basic freedoms. Sh1t I'll even accept NZ, the UK or Canada as a comparison. But the constant use of the US shows just how weak the anti-human rights argument is.

BTW before you get your panties all bunched up, when I say human rights I mean codified human rights, just like I have for the past 5 years.

Also I never at any time stated any hatred for the anti discrimination legislation, European or Australian, so nice accusation, but total bullsh1t.

'codified' is one hell of a difference!! yes they have more 'codified' human rights than us. However, we have more actual, in pract human rights.

but what is truly pathetic is this commentary comes right out of your usual predictable rant about voting. as trivial an issue as can be found, you make it a definition of human rights. Give me OUR rights than Europes any day.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #303 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:42pm Hardly. Forcing people to vote is something of which to be proud???? Lol
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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #304 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:46pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:42pm:

Hardly.
Forcing people to vote is something of which to be proud????

Lol

this from someone who thinks the death penalty is okay even if innocents die? But compulsory voting is onerous??

in what planet is voting some kind of obligation that is too hard, too onerous or offensive? IN the list of things we are forced to do does it even rank in the top 100?

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BigOl64

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #305 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:58pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:39pm:

'codified' is one hell of a difference!! yes they have more 'codified' human rights than us. However, we have more actual, in pract human rights.

but what is truly pathetic is this commentary comes right out of your usual predictable rant about voting. as trivial an issue as can be found, you make it a definition of human rights. Give me OUR rights than Europes any day.

for a start we don't have ANY codified human rights let alone a 'few less'.

Our 'rights' would be what exactly?

You know the ones that are much better than everyone else's. I don't recall you having a fvcken clue what they were last time we 'dicussed this, let alone where they were or anything else about our world's best human rights. Grin

If you don't have a clue what something is, it's pretty stupid to claim it is the 'best in the world'.

But feel free to show me and everyone else what our world's best human right are, I'd be more than happy to see them.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #306 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:25pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:58pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:39pm:

'codified' is one hell of a difference!! yes they have more 'codified' human rights than us. However, we have more actual, in pract human rights.

but what is truly pathetic is this commentary comes right out of your usual predictable rant about voting. as trivial an issue as can be found, you make it a definition of human rights. Give me OUR rights than Europes any day.

for a start we don't have ANY codified human rights let alone a 'few less'.

Our 'rights' would be what exactly?

You know the ones that are much better than everyone else's. I don't recall you having a fvcken clue what they were last time we 'dicussed this, let alone where they were or anything else about our world's best human rights. Grin

If you don't have a clue what something is, it's pretty stupid to claim it is the 'best in the world'.

But feel free to show me and everyone else what our world's best human right are, I'd be more than happy to see them.

Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it. We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.

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BigOl64

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #307 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:41pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.Â We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.

Horse sh1t!

We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.

Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.

And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.

Like I said, Horse sh1t!

You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #308 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:46pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:46pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 4:42pm:

Hardly.
Forcing people to vote is something of which to be proud????

Lol

this from someone who thinks the death penalty is okay even if innocents die? But compulsory voting is onerous??

in what planet is voting some kind of obligation that is too hard, too onerous or offensive? IN the list of things we are forced to do does it even rank in the top 100?

The rest of the developed world also thinks forcing people to vote is absurd.

If you want a free country then you should be free to stay home.

The last 3 elections in the UK I stayed home and never bothered.
You see in a free country that is my right. It is not for you or anyone else to make me.

What a ridiculous thing, forcing people to vote!!

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD Reply #309 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:47pm A dictatorship forces people to vote. Not a supposedly free country!
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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #310 - Jan 10^th, 2013 at 6:57am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.Â We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.

Horse sh1t!

We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.

Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.

And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.

Like I said, Horse sh1t!

You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.

free speech does not include the right to defamation whcih I thought would be obvious. Bolt was found guilty of defamation. You can disagree with that determinatin (and I do) but it was not an abrogation of the principle of free speech.

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #311 - Jan 10^th, 2013 at 6:58am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.Â We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.

Horse sh1t!

We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.

Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.

And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.

Like I said, Horse sh1t!

You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.

do you mean the bikies legislation that the High Court has repeatedly reject precisely for this reason??? Tlak about the worst possible example of proving your case!!!

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #312 - Jan 10^th, 2013 at 7:01am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.Â We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.

Horse sh1t!

We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.

Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.

And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.

Like I said, Horse sh1t!

You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.

presumption of innocence in criminal matters exists ALL THE TIME and I reject your assertion otherwise. Police search warrants might be a contentious issue but they are not a prima facie breach of human rights or civil liberties. Just because YOU dont agree with a law doesnt make it a breach of human rights. the definition of that is a higher standard!

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gold_medal

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #313 - Jan 10^th, 2013 at 7:04am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.Â We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.

Horse sh1t!

We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.

Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.

And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.

Like I said, Horse sh1t!

You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.

do you know of a singel example of religious freedom having been denied in Australia? Like I said earlier the USSR and China have constitutions guaranteeing the right to practice religion of choice. I wil aplaud the country (ours!) that practices freedom rathe than those that write it on a peice of paper and then ignore it.

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Dnarever

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Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Reply #314 - Jan 10^th, 2013 at 7:21am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 5:47pm:

A dictatorship forces people to vote.

Not a supposedly free country!

The vast majority of dictatorships have stopped people voting or ensured that there was only one option.

You seem to have the horse at the wrong end of the cart again.

Ensuring that the maximum number of people have a free vote is the opposite to dictatorial.

The question here is not about this issue.

Is it a better system when people have a responsibility to vote in a system where you guarantee a high turn out resulting in a highly representative result and legitimate government.

Or is the price too high and:

It is better to get an less representative result but give people the option to not participate.

I think the current system (warts and all) has served us well for a century, as good or better than any other not perfect by any means.

Change always entails risk and in this case the seemingly simple variation would be very likely to result in a large variation overall with the concentration of power going to minority lobby groups and existence of party's and viability of independents etc.

All rather extreme and undesirable outcomes.

In my view even those supporting a change are looking at something like a 20% penalty for a 5% gain.

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Poll
Question: Do you think that compulsory voting
* This poll has now closed *
makes the system more democratic 6 (30.0%) makes the system less democratic 8 (40.0%) has no effect on democracy 6 (30.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: muso on: Jan 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm »