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freediver

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Faith Ratchet
Jan 3^rd, 2013 at 1:01pm

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Faith_Ratchet#Islam_as_a_ratchet

Islam can be considered an ideological ratchet because it incorporates several mechanisms for preventing dissent and anchoring the ideology in a way that allows people to adopt Islam but prevents people from rejecting it. Note that this explanation should be interpreted in the context in which Islam grew – as a single, expansionist, military empire, rather than as the fragmented movement it is today. In fact, the fragmentation and internal violence we see today is analogous to the catastrophic failure of a ratchet when it is forced to move backwards.

See link for more.

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #1 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 7:50am If your wiki article were a highs school essay, it would get a big fat F. There is not one reference to any of your claims you make about islam - other than links back to your own posts and/or other equally baseless sources. Also please break the longer chapters into paragraphs - its quite unreadable.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49452 At my desk.	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #2 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:26am So what actual Muslims say is a baseless source for what Muslims say, or for Islam in general? Oh, and welcome back gandalf. If there is anything in the article that is actually wrong, rather than merely insufficiently referenced, please let me know.
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 107036 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #3 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:42am Dear FD, All Abrahamic religions are the same - Jesus was crucified for blasphemy - what has changed? Muslims want to kill non-believers of their religion.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49452 At my desk.	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #4 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:50am I think you will find that they are different bobby. But don't let inconvenient details like that get in the way of whatever point you are trying to make.
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Bobby.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #5 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:11am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

Quote:

Blasphemy law is law relating to blasphemy, or irreverence toward holy personages, religious artifacts, customs, and beliefs.

Some countries, especially countries which have Islam as the state religion, regard blasphemy as a serious offence. Pakistan, for example, has legislation which makes execution a penalty for blasphemy.

In place of or in addition to prohibitions against blasphemy, some countries have laws which give redress to those who feel insulted on account of their religion. These laws forbid hate speech, the vilification of religion, or "religious insult".

What has changed?
Abrahamic religions still kill other people over their religion.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49452 At my desk.	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #6 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:33am Are we still living in the dark ages bobby?
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 107036 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #7 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:48am freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 10:33am: Are we still living in the dark ages bobby? Not according to master Light. This is the new age of light. forgiven namaste
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49452 At my desk.	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #8 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:51am What do you think bobby?
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Bobby.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #9 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:55am

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 11:51am:

What do you think bobby?

Hi FD,
I think that little has changed.
Apart from stoning people to death for blasphemy in Muslim countries we
now have new laws which will prevent criticism of religion that will be in place here soon -
& that is in a so called enlightened country like Australia.

Looks like the mussies will get their way here too. Huh

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #10 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:35pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:26am:

So what actual Muslims say is a baseless source for what Muslims say, or for Islam in general?

It is baseless for the case of islamic jurisprudence - which is what you are talking about. You either have to reference the relevant islamic text yourself, or quote someone who is an authority on islamic text - who themselves quote relevant passages. But not only this, you then need to present the other side - which in the case of Islamic jurisprudence there always is. There is almost no unanimity amongst islamic scholars on just about any issue of islamic law, and I can guarantee you that even if there is a scholarly opinion supporting some of these claims of yours, there are other equally valid opinions that disagree.

Its just stupid, given the huge divisions amongst muslim scholars regarding the sorts of things you talk about, to say islam permits this or that, rather than say something more sensible like "some muslim scholars claim this this and this based on x passage, however, other scholars disagree based on x passage" - or something like that. Thats the correct approach when you obviously have no idea yourself - its just elementary acadamia - high school stuff. Don't just come out and say "Rape is permitted in Islam in the same situations that sex is permitted." - and then use as the source for this claim a discussion on ozpolitics in which there is not even any evidence presented that backs up your claim.

Also:
Quote:

Necrophilia is permitted in Islam in the same situations that sex is permitted, with the added restriction that the corpse has to be fresh. The Arab spring gave birth to serious efforts to legalise necrophilia (with a 6 hour time limit) and reduce the age of consent in Egypt. The legislation is currently before parliament.

you need to get rid of this, because this is a known hoax

"serious efforts" - come on, you've reached a new low there Embarrassed

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« Last Edit: Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:55pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #11 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:57pm

Quote:

It is baseless for the case of islamic jurisprudence - which is what you are talking about.

The article encompasses far more than that. It also discusses how Muslims promote Islam outside of Islamic jurisprudence. I can hardly quote some 13th centruy Muslim from India. But I can quote you and Abu.

Quote:

You either have to reference the relevant islamic text yourself, or quote someone who is an authority on islamic text - who themselves quote relevant passages.

No I don't. I am not sure what high school you went to, but we were never expected to defer to religious authority.

Quote:

But not only this, you then need to present the other side - which in the case of Islamic jurisprudence there always is.

No, I don't have to do that either.

Quote:

There is no almost no unanimity amongst islamic scholars

But there was a single Caliph throughout much of Islam's history, which is what really matters. If someone gets stoned to death for blasphemy, does it really matter if some Muslim is mumbling in the background about the merits of the death penatly?

Quote:

Its just stupid, given the huge divisions amongst muslim scholars regarding the sorts of things you talk about, to say islam permits this or that

You should tell Abu these things. He has been telling us exactly what Islam permits and forbids for a few years. He did acknowledge a few minor points of disagreement.

Quote:

"some muslim scholars claim this this and this based on x passage, however, other scholars disagree based on x passage" - or something like that. Thats the correct approach when you obviously have no idea yourself. Don't just come out and say "Rape is permitted in Islam in the same situations that sex is permitted."

I didn't just 'come out and say that'. There are about 50 pages of discussion behind that claim. Hence the links.

Quote:

and then use as the source for this claim a discussion on ozpolitics in which there is not even any evidence presented that backs up your claim

Are you sure about that? Plenty of evidence was posted as part of those discussions. However, the main reason for the discussions is to get over the linguistic difficulties, barriers to communication and the all the subtle ways that Muslims use to mislead or conceal.

Quote:

you need to get rid of this, because it has been shown to be a hoax

Thanks for making a specific recommendation. The wikipedia section you linked to has this at the top: "The article's factual accuracy may be compromised due to out-of-date information."

Also, there is nothing about necrophilia in the faith ratchet article. Are your comments here in reference to the Islam and Australian Value article?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49452 At my desk.	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #12 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:05pm Here is a thread where we were discussing the necrophilia thing. I see it never actually got resolved. Falah posted an article criticising the allegations regarding Egypt (on top of his usual barrage of insults), however it also appeared to concede they may be true. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1310028601
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #13 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:57pm:

No I don't. I am not sure what high school you went to, but we were never expected to defer to religious authority.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Islam is a text-based religion, and therefore talking about what islam does and doesn't permit has to have a textual basis. If you are talking about what muslims do in practice, then that is not the same thing, and you need to make the distinction.

Quote:

I didn't just 'come out and say that'. There are about 50 pages of discussion behind that claim. Hence the links.

rubbish. The two "references" you give for the rape claims give nothing of relevance - apart from one claim by a muslim that rape is punishable in islam. Mostly its just you and your buddy islamophobes raving.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 107036 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #14 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:37pm Gandalf, Quote: you and your buddy islamophobes raving. Wow - we have a new defender of the faith here. Maybe you could apply to be moderator & get slaughtered every day like Abu was? He hasn't turned up for a month.
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