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Faith Ratchet (Read 39201 times)

damien Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 639 Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #135 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:17am They will get their just rewards eventually.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #136 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:26am

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2013 at 11:52pm:

Quote:

There are plenty of other things we consider forbidden that don't have a prescribed punishment.

Such as?

charging usury, neglecting to pay zakat and treason - just three things off the top of my head we know for sure are forbidden in islam but have no prescribed earthly punishment.

Islamic law specifies only a few crimes with a prescribed punishment. The vast majority of punishment would come under the "tazir" category, which is left to the judge's discretion.

Soren wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 12:51am:

One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.

Do you think it mean fight with weapons OR desire an inner struggle and meditation (jihad)?

What is the original arabic words? Was the word for "fight" a word that could mean a struggle in either the physical or spiritual sense? I suspect that you have no idea.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #137 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:30am

Yadda wrote on Jan 12^th, 2013 at 9:40pm:

some disturbing photos that everyone has seen a million times already

Gee thats a mature way to debate yadda. Shall I post pictures of the millions of women happily married and not being abused by their muslim husbands?

Or maybe I should post pictures of battered non-muslim wives as "proof" that islam is the only way.

It would be equally as retarded as what you did.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #138 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:42am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 12^th, 2013 at 9:40pm:

some disturbing photos that everyone has seen a million times already

Gee thats a mature way to debate yadda. Shall I post pictures of the millions of women happily married and not being abused by their muslim husbands?

But gandalf,

THE POINT THAT I AM MAKING......
Is that according to you, such abuse should not be happening within any ISLAMIC community because;

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2013 at 6:43pm:

both the quran and the hadith instruct muslim men on multiple occasions to treat women with respect and not abuse them (for reference, see falah's post that you yourself reference for rape).

gandalf,

Tell us all.......

.......are those 'persons' who are abusing moslem girls and women, really infidels ???

Are those abusers of moslem girls and women, really moslem IMPERSONATORS ?i+++

gandalf,

How do you account for all of this abuse of moslem girls and women, that is going on within the 'virtuous' moslem ummah [community] ?

When Allah himself has declared that all moslems are righteous people'enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong'.

"Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah.......[and it is the 'unbelievers' who] are perverted transgressors."

Koran 3.110

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #139 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:52am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Soren wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 12:51am:

What is the original arabic words? Was the word for "fight" a word that could mean a struggle in either the physical or spiritual sense? I suspect that you have no idea.

gandalf,

Are moslems who are 'correctly' fighting the Jihad, going to die for Allah's cause, in a spiritual sense ???

gandalf,

Why, oh why, are you misrepresenting Jihad, and ISLAM, on this forum.

You are a moslem [you claim!!!!].

Yet, you seem woefully ignorant about what ISLAM really is, and about the philosophy which ISLAM really promotes. [.....i.e. a philosophy promoting lies, deception, intimidation, vicious violence, oppression and 'lawful' murder.]

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.053

"The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.054

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.072

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

i.e. Muhammad is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And that Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed.

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21914 A cat with a view	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #140 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:59am gandalf, There is an 'opening' for you in heaven. All you have to do, is to repent your error, [not to me, just....] TO GOD. Just pray to him. His name is; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Psalms 146:8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:
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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #141 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 9:09am

Yadda wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:42am:

gandalf,

Tell us all.......

.......are those 'persons' who are abusing moslem girls and women, really infidels ???

Are those abusers of moslem girls and women, really moslem IMPERSONATORS ?

gandalf,

Are you sure, that it isn't you [and all moslems], who are not the real KUFFAR ???

"Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229682951/0#0
Quote:

Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar, YOU are the unbeliever.

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God.

You muslims insist that ONLY muslims are the 'properly guided'.

Is he who is on a path of lies and deception, 'properly guided'??

AN EXPLANATION OF THE WORD 'KUFFAR'...

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #142 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 10:08am

Soren wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 12:51am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 12:41am:

Soren wrote on Jan 12^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

What are you trying to express, PB? I can see you are on the mental lav again, purple faced, trying to pass a turd but bugger knows what you are trying to pass, other than you and whoever packed it for ya.
Aperient? Have two.

You really don’t understand it, do you? I’ll give you a clue - jihad does not mean carpet-bombing an enemy.

Fighting in the name of Allah means submission, letting go.

Read your quote again.

One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.

Do you think it mean fight with weapons OR desire an inner struggle and meditation (jihad)?

It can mean both those things. Mohammed taught in a time of relentless tribal war. He taught soldiers and their families using ideas they would understand. War is a metaphor for life, and vice versa. Death is mentioned constantly because it was so commonplace and ordinary.

Your reference goes on to say a few passages on, "the martyrs are of five kinds": those who die of plague, cholera, are drowned, buried under debris, and those who "die fighting in the name of Allah".

When these passages say dying in the way of Allah, they don’t mean fighting an enemy, they refer to intent and purity of heart. It says, "If a person dies (while performing his duty), his meritous activity will continue" after death.

Yes, soldiers who faught with Allah in mind could be saved, but it applies equally to any activity - Mohammed also uses women and domestic duties as examples.

You know how I know this? I just read your Hadith reference. Thanks, old boy. Excellent referencing there.

I’m giving you homework. I want five passages read by tomorrow. I’m sure you’ll find some doozies too.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #143 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 10:19am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

What is the original arabic words? Was the word for "fight" a word that could mean a struggle in either the physical or spiritual sense? I suspect that you have no idea.

Not this hoary old chestnut!

For 'moderate' Muslims like you trying to make it out that beheading hostages in the name of Allah (just a random example of Islam's contribution to contemporary spiritual life) has nuffin' to do wiv jihad is the reason why you are not to be trusted.

Face it, your co-religionists are doing bloodthirsty, horrible thing for which they hype themselves 'spiritually', repeating Koranic verses. And what do you do about it?

You try to fudge it with some laughable nod towards translation theory.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #144 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 10:21am

Karnal wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 10:08am:

Yes, soldiers who faught with Allah in mind could be saved, but it applies equally to any activity - Mohammed also uses women and domestic duties as examples.

You know how I know this? I just read your Hadith reference. Thanks, old boy. Excellent referencing there.

So, Jihad can also be, pleasing your husband, and being an obedient wife ???

Yes ?

K,

Read this;

"Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.006.301

"On 'Id ul Fitr or 'Id ul Adha Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, "O people! Give alms." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He replied, "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray." Then he left. And when he reached his house, Zainab, the wife of Ibn Masud, came and asked permission to enter It was said, "O Allah's Apostle! It is Zainab." He asked, 'Which Zainab?" The reply was that she was the wife of Ibn Mas'ub. He said, "Yes, allow her to enter." And she was admitted. Then she said, "O Prophet of Allah! Today you ordered people to give alms and I had an ornament and intended to give it as alms, but Ibn Masud said that he and his children deserved it more than anybody else." The Prophet replied, "Ibn Masud had spoken the truth. Your husband and your children had more right to it than anybody else." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #002.024.541

Unless moslem women are always prepared to 'satisfy' their husbands, and are always obedient wives,......

Google;
most of the inhabitants of hell are women, mohammed

Google;
women mentally deficient, islam

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #145 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 10:22am

Yadda wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:42am:

But gandalf,

THE POINT THAT I AM MAKING......
Is that according to you, such abuse should not be happening within any ISLAMIC community because;

should not does not mean does not.

Yadda there are over 1 billion muslims worldwide. Thats 1 with 9 zeros - its a hell of a lot of people. I don't think anyone could expect every single one of them to act like angels. How many muslim women do you think get abused and disfigured by their menfolk as a proportion to that 1 billion? Even if its less than 1%, its still a rather large number, and can provide plenty of disturbing photos.

Yadda wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Are moslems who are 'correctly' fighting the Jihad, going to die for Allah's cause, in a spiritual sense ???

Absolutely. An example would be a muslim in Mecca performing the Haj, and getting killed by a falling construction piece. Or a muslim being executed in a non-muslim country for not renouncing his faith.

Even when fighting, true martyrdom is only achieved when the muslim is pure of heart and performing a selfless act. Thus suicide bombers who are selfishly looking for 40 virgins (or whatever) in heaven are the very antithesis of true martyrdom. In fact, those fighters who deliberately put themselves in situations where they will be killed are not martyrs - since they are not actually "fighting" in any military or spiritual sense - but rather simply looking for a free ticket to heaven.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #146 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 10:27am

Yadda wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 8:03am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 12:41am:

You really don’t understand it [jihad], do you? I’ll give you a clue - jihad does not mean carpet-bombing an enemy.

Fighting in the name of Allah means submission, letting go.

Hey K,

You are misrepresenting Jihad, and ISLAM.

You need to pull your head out of it.

IMAGE.....
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Wc_-IxeouPU/ThnoLBTwrCI/AAAAAAAAAC8/cWkULC8reVk/s1600/...

But i'm not sure that that, is where your head is inserted ?

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.053

"The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.054

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.072

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

i.e. Muhammad is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And that Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed.

Well, Y, having just read the old boy’s Hadith, I can tell you what it really says. It doesn’t mention religious fighting in the passage you’re referencing.

It says "those who stand watch" for a day and a night get more spiritual benefit than days of fasting and praying. Hadith number 4703.

What Mohammed is saying is that everyday duties - performed well - are better than praying and fasting.

I assume that watch duty in warring villages was a task no one wanted to do. I assume people thought it was more macho to fight and defend their turf. Or more pious to fast and pray.

Mohammed is saying, no, doing your duty well will get you more kudos with Allah than anything else.

But as every schoolboy knows, Mohammed is not just talking about sentry duty. Watching also means looking within yourself. The old boy’s right - it refers to meditation.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #147 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 11:30am

Quote:

Point 6 makes absolutely no sense.

Can you elaborate? Are you saying I am wrong about the punishment depending on the marital status of the perpetrator?

Quote:

Anyway, I'm not going to waste much more of my time on this silly debate.

Can you at least give an example of someone being punished for spousal rape under Shariah law? It would help me to take your claims seriously.

Quote:

I have made my point abundantly clear, which I will repeat one more time: both the quran and the hadith instruct muslim men on multiple occasions to treat women with respect and not abuse them (for reference, see falah's post that you yourself reference for rape). Most muslims, including falah and me, believe that it goes without saying that those prescriptions extend to how you treat your wife in bed. If you insist that islam makes an exception to that rule by allowing spousal rape, then you need to provide some supporting evidence.

It is not an exception, as Falah also explained. I'm sure Falah would treat his wife with respect, if he had one. Unless of course she disobeyed him. Even if she did disobey him, he would beat her in a respectful manner. But he would probably not rape her. This does not have to contradict his claim that spousal rape is not a punishable offence in Islam. You keep complaining that I ignore your point, but the reality is that I respond to it each time and you come up with nothing but repeating yourself.

Quote:

And no, muslims not being able to come up with an islamic-prescribed punishment for spousal rape doesn't count.

What counts is Muslims stating in plain English that rape is not a punishable offence in Islam, and providing pages of supporting evidence and specific details on the punishments for rape and sex. That you cannot even give an example to back up your position, and rely instead on a flawed logical argument using Falah's evidence does not make my case, but it does point to Falah et al being right yet again.

Quote:

They are vocal. The moderates are quiet, probably because they are afraid of the bearded fvckers, like everyone else who doesn't carry a gun.

Also, it is hard when Muslims like Falah can easily back up their position as the correct interpretation of Islam, whereas gandalf must rely on blind insistence and their own interpretation of marginally relevant hadiths.

Quote:

charging usury, neglecting to pay zakat and treason

Accotrding to Abu the punishment for treason and apostasy is death.

Quote:

just three things off the top of my head we know for sure are forbidden in islam but have no prescribed earthly punishment

Is that the same as saying it is not punishable?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #148 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 12:35pm

no FD. I'm saying there is no specified punishment for spousal rape, which isn't the same as saying it is not a crime and should not be punished. You seem very confused on that point. And yes, I am disagreeing with Falah on this - deal with it.

Apart from 6 specific exceptions, there is no prescribed punishment for any sin in islam. It doesn't mean that the things we know are sins aren't punishable - like usury and treason. I believe that comes under the 'Tazir' category - as mentioned in my last post.

But by all means continue bringing up Falah's quote, but know that it is baseless and irrelevant.

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 11:30am:

Also, it is hard when Muslims like Falah can easily back up their position as the correct interpretation of Islam

No. I'm sorry that you still can't comprehend this most elementary fact, and I grow tired of repeating it: Falah did not in any way shape or form "back up" his claim that spousal rape is not a punishable offense. What he DID back up in the relevant thread is that mistreating women and abusing them is forbidden.

Unless I'm completely missing something, in which case you'll have to quote me exactly where Falah backed up this claim with relevant hadith or quranic text.

But as anyone with an ounce of common sense should know, it is patently obvious that if islam forbids hurting and abusing women (as per the hadith and quranic quotes in Falah's post) - and unless there is a specified exception in regards to spousal rape (which there is not), then it follows that spousal rape is forbidden. In the case of this happening in a nation living under shariah law, the complaint would be taken to the shariah court, and if sufficient evidence is provided (or a confession made), then the judge would decide a punishment under the 'tazir' code of punishment.

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 11:30am:

Can you elaborate? Are you saying I am wrong about the punishment depending on the marital status of the perpetrator?

I'm not seeing how this statement:
Quote:

The punishment for rape depends on the marital status of the perpetrator. If the rapist is married, he gets stoned to death. If the rapist is unmarried, he gets 100 lashes. It just so happens that this is the same punishment for consensual sex outside of marriage. That is, the punishments would not actually change if you declared rape legal but maintained that sex outside of marriage is forbidden (except of course for the victim). You would have a hard time reconciling that with punishments for spousal rape.

... in any way relates to a "basic flaw" in my view that islam outlaws spousal rape.

« Last Edit: Jan 13^th, 2013 at 12:42pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #149 - Jan 13^th, 2013 at 1:09pm

Quote:

no FD. I'm saying there is no specified punishment for spousal rape, which isn't the same as saying it is not a crime and should not be punished. You seem very confused on that point.

I'm the one who has pointed this out to you a dozen times already. The reason I kept bringing it up is that you never responded and appeared confused about the meaning of Falah's statement.

Quote:

Falah and Abu have both gone into great detail about the punishment for rape and consensual sex, in many threads. For most crimes of interest, they have said what the punishment should be.

Quote:

But as anyone with an ounce of common sense should know

You keep insisting that common sense is relevant. It isn't. Islam forbids common sense.

Quote:

it is patently obvious that if islam forbids hurting and abusing women (as per the hadith and quranic quotes in Falah's post) - and unless there is a specified exception in regards to spousal rape (which there is not), then it follows that spousal rape is forbidden

Islam does not actually forbid hurting and abusing women though does it? It forbids hurting and abusing women beyond the limits imposed by Shariah law, and effectively redefines hurting and abusing women as only meaning exceeding those limits. This is not the same as an absolute ban on hurting and abusing women. For example, would you consider it hurting and abusing women if a bunch of old men stoned a young girl to death for having consensual sex?

Also, there is a specific exception in the sense that the punishment for rape depends on the marital status of the perpetrator. It is not necessary to specifically exclude spousal rape for it to be excluded. All that is required is that it not be included. It is not included. This is what I mean when I refer to your position being based on flawed logic rather than Islamic law. It is hypocritical for you to demand a higher standard of evidence from me than yourself.

Quote:

In the case of this happening in a nation living under shariah law, the complaint would be taken to the shariah court, and if sufficient evidence is provided (or a confession made), then the judge would decide a punishment under the 'tazir' code of punishment.

How do you know this, given that it has never actually happened in Islam's 1400 year history?

Also, are you saying that spousal rape would be treated under a different legal code to rape and illegal sexual intercourse? According to the wiki article you linked to, illegal sexual intercourse is punished under hudud. Does this mean that you acknowledge that Islam does not consider spousal rape to be illegal sexual intercourse?

Quote:

... in any way relates to a "basic flaw" in my view that islam outlaws spousal rape

It is because it indicates that Islam does not even consider it to be rape. It reinforces Falah's claim that spousal rape is not a punishable offence.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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