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Faith Ratchet (Read 39175 times)

polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #180 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 3:09pm

As you have articulated Karnal, stoning in islam is a gigantic non-issue today.

Give credit where credits due - don't attack muslims for having stoning at the very time that they are overwhelmingly abolishing it. For FD, because one muslim has stated that stoning should be part of sharia, then thats all the proof he needs. But the record should speak for itself: that virtually no muslim majority country practices stoning today is the best proof that mainstream islam overwhelmingly disagrees with it.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #181 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm

Quote:

As you have articulated Karnal, stoning in islam is a gigantic non-issue today.

Almost everything about Islamic law is a gigantic non-issue. As Abu so often bemoans, ever since Great Britian and France forced middle eastern Muslims to outlaw and gradually eradicate slavery, they have been preventing Muslims from setting up proper Islamic law. This appears to render Muslims totally unaccountable for their actions - as Abu is quick to point out every time they stone someone to death.

Quote:

Give credit where credits due - don't attack muslims for having stoning at the very time that they are overwhelmingly abolishing it.

I don't attack Abu et al for 'having' stoning or for 'having' anything else. I criticise him (and the millions of similar minded Muslims worldwide) for wanting to bring it back. One of the key strategies with the wiki is to focus on what Muslims claim Shariah law to be, not what various regimes implement.

Quote:

For FD, because one muslim has stated that stoning should be part of sharia, then thats all the proof he needs.

Many Muslims - as I recall every single one I have spoken to about the issue until you turned up. Even you appear to concede that it was a standard part of Islamic law while it still existed. Also, a non-Muslim pulled him up on this once. I think it was Annie, and he did get into the Islamic justifications.

Quote:

But the record should speak for itself: that virtually no muslim majority country practices stoning today is the best proof that mainstream islam overwhelmingly disagrees with it.

You mean all the countries that Abu (and many other Muslims) insists do not actually practice Islamic law because they are all western puppet regimes?

What do you think is the correlation between Muslim majority and the accuracy of the implementation of Shariah law?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #182 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:36pm

Er, Britain forced the Arabs to stop selling slaves because they stopped buying them, FD. Has Abu issued a decree to overturn the abolition of the slave trade? Shame!

The correlation between the Muslim majority and the implimentation of Sharia law is, most likely, the Declaration of the Universal Rights of Man.

We now live in a global economic system bound by treaties, trade agreements, the UN, the IMF, international education standards and the English language. The days of insular, isolated states with truly sovereign laws are long gone.

People here bitch about it all the time. Imagine how they feel in places like Pakistan, where the long arm of the law is sensed when the drones fly overhead.

Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jew, all are subject to the same principles, and all do business in the same marketplace.

That’s the correlation, and it’s how Thomas Payne put the Muselmen slave exporters out of business.

Who knows? Maybe one day, FD, you’ll do the same.

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #183 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:51pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

As Abu so often bemoans, ever since Great Britian and France forced middle eastern Muslims to outlaw and gradually eradicate slavery, they have been preventing Muslims from setting up proper Islamic law.

Ahh now I see - muslims were forced to give up stoning by the noble white man. Its just so obvious now.

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

I criticise him (and the millions of similar minded Muslims worldwide) for wanting to bring it back. One of the key strategies with the wiki is to focus on what Muslims claim Shariah law to be

Yes, because the facts contained in the wiki are totally based on the "millions" of muslims freediver has personally spoken to the world over. Definitely not merely on the only 2 muslims he ever refers to.

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Many Muslims - as I recall every single one I have spoken to about the issue until you turned up.

Yes, we know - the millions you have personally spoken to. No one can argue against that.

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

You mean all the countries that Abu (and many other Muslims) insists do not actually practice Islamic law because they are all western puppet regimes?

All the middle-east dictatorships were forced to present an air of "islamic" rule to placate the islamists. Even Saddam. They simply wouldn't have survived two minutes if they didn't. Funny though, that for all the things these regimes conceded, stoning wasn't one of them. Surely if stoning was so ingrained and so essential for all the islamic hordes, they would have had no choice but to allow it right?

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #184 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:19pm

Quote:

Er, Britain forced the Arabs to stop selling slaves because they stopped buying them, FD.

Both Great Britain and France put pressure on them to stop the internal slave trade and outlaw ownership of slaves. Obviously, given the cultural aspects it took a long time for this to work, and slavery still happens in many of these places. Obviously they stopped buying them well before this, but their involvement went well beyond a 'boycott'.

Quote:

We now live in a global economic system bound by treaties, trade agreements, the UN, the IMF, international education standards and the English language. The days of insular, isolated states with truly sovereign laws are long gone.

And yet we still manage to decide for ourselves how to punish criminals.

Quote:

Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jew, all are subject to the same principles, and all do business in the same marketplace.

Global trade and the international laws and agreements governing it is only a minor part of the issue.

Quote:

Ahh now I see - muslims were forced to give up stoning by the noble white man. Its just so obvious now.

The role of European countries in ending slavery in the middle east is well known, as well as their role in eventually dismantling the old empire.

Quote:

Definitely not merely on the only 2 muslims he ever refers to.

What about Malik?

Quote:

All the middle-east dictatorships were forced to present an air of "islamic" rule to placate the islamists. Even Saddam. They simply wouldn't have survived two minutes if they didn't. Funny though, that for all the things these regimes conceded, stoning wasn't one of them. Surely if stoning was so ingrained and so essential for all the islamic hordes, they would have had no choice but to allow it right?

So middle eastern dictatorships are now a meaningful example of what Islamic law is? Yadda will be so pleased. It's always funny to watch Muslims argue both sides of this one.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #185 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:23pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:36pm:

We now live in a global economic system bound by treaties, trade agreements, the UN, the IMF, international education standards and the English language. The days of insular, isolated states with truly sovereign laws are long gone.

"And all disputes are successfully resolved by that superb supra-national body, the United Nations. It is never so called entities like 'France' than actually intervene (as we speak, smacking inconveniently for your mind-sappingly idiotic little thesis) in so called entities like 'Mali'. "

Wha' 'appened, PB? World not conforming to your stupid fantasy?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #186 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:19pm:

What about Malik?

ah yes, my bad... Falah + Abu + Malik = "millions" of muslims.

"the gospel truth of islam" - by Falah, Abu and Malik. The only account you ever need to read on islamic jurisprudence.

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:19pm:

So middle eastern dictatorships are now a meaningful example of what Islamic law is?

oh you got me there. Thats EXACTLY what I said. Cheesy

Cheesy

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #187 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:55pm

Quote:

ah yes, my bad... Falah + Abu + Malik = "millions" of muslims.

That is three Gandalf. Plus a few others who didn't hang round long enough to make an impression (like the one who is still a mod on this board). They made a good case that they represented mainstream Islam and presented plenty of evidence in various arguments - compared to you who opened by explaining that you don't really know much.

Quote:

oh you got me there. Thats EXACTLY what I said.

Yes, it pretty much is. Like I said, Muslims will go to absurd lengths to argue that the various middle eastern dictatorships can or cannot be used as an example of what Islam truly is, depending on the circumstances (but always to make Islam appear more benign). You are no exception.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #188 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:18pm

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:36pm:

We now live in a global economic system bound by treaties, trade agreements, the UN, the IMF, international education standards and the English language. The days of insular, isolated states with truly sovereign laws are long gone.

"And all disputes are successfully resolved by that superb supra-national body, the United Nations. It is never so called entities like 'France' than actually intervene (as we speak, smacking inconveniently for your mind-sappingly idiotic little thesis) in so called entities like 'Mali'. "

Wha' 'appened, PB? World not conforming to your stupid fantasy?

Sorry to interrupt, old chap, but were you about to make a point?

Please continue. It’s rivetting.

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Soren

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #189 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:29pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:18pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:36pm:

We now live in a global economic system bound by treaties, trade agreements, the UN, the IMF, international education standards and the English language. The days of insular, isolated states with truly sovereign laws are long gone.

"And all disputes are successfully resolved by that superb supra-national body, the United Nations. It is never so called entities like 'France' than actually intervene (as we speak, smacking inconveniently for your mind-sappingly idiotic little thesis) in so called entities like 'Mali'. "

Wha' 'appened, PB? World not conforming to your stupid fantasy?

Sorry to interrupt, old chap, but were you about to make a point?

Please continue. It’s rivetting.

"The French government has thrown down the gauntlet to the jihadists of Ansar Dine and their fellow travelers in Mali -- and insists its goal is nothing short of eradicating these militant groups."

No IMF, UN, treaties and supranational handwringing-fest.
Past you by, no doubt.

"France’s army chief says French troops have begun a ground offensive in Mali and will be in direct combat with Islamist rebels soon."

I missed the UN smacking debate and resolution. Please point us to them, PB, it musta happened while I blinked in this post-national, supranational, international education in English world.

"French" response (ie Muslim aliens in Paris)?

« Last Edit: Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:36pm by Soren »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #190 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:35pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:55pm:

Yes, it pretty much is. Like I said, Muslims will go to absurd lengths to argue that the various middle eastern dictatorships can or cannot be used as an example of what Islam truly is, depending on the circumstances (but always to make Islam appear more benign). You are no exception.

Well let me put it on the record clearly so you don't misquote me again. Middle east dictatorships like Saddam Hussein DO NOT provide an accurate example of what islam trully is. Pointing out that they presented an air of islamism to placate the powerful islamists in society is not even remotely close to saying that it is.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #191 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:35pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:55pm:

Yes, it pretty much is. Like I said, Muslims will go to absurd lengths to argue that the various middle eastern dictatorships can or cannot be used as an example of what Islam truly is, depending on the circumstances (but always to make Islam appear more benign). You are no exception.

Well let me put it on the record clearly so you don't misquote me again. Middle east dictatorships like Saddam Hussein DO NOT provide an accurate example of what islam trully is. Pointing out that they presented an air of islamism to placate the powerful islamists in society is not even remotely close to saying that it is.

Well, do give us an accurate example of what Islam actually is, then. Go on, give us an example from history that you want brought back, established across the world and followed by all. G on.

It is no use to always say 'it's not this, it's not that'. What IS it? What example do you actually have before your eyes that demonstrates what Islam truly is?

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #192 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:19pm:

Quote:

Er, Britain forced the Arabs to stop selling slaves because they stopped buying them, FD.

Both Great Britain and France put pressure on them to stop the internal slave trade and outlaw ownership of slaves. Obviously, given the cultural aspects it took a long time for this to work, and slavery still happens in many of these places. Obviously they stopped buying them well before this, but their involvement went well beyond a 'boycott'.

Quote:

We now live in a global economic system bound by treaties, trade agreements, the UN, the IMF, international education standards and the English language. The days of insular, isolated states with truly sovereign laws are long gone.

And yet we still manage to decide for ourselves how to punish criminals.

Quote:

Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jew, all are subject to the same principles, and all do business in the same marketplace.

Global trade and the international laws and agreements governing it is only a minor part of the issue.

I see. But 7th century laws about stoning adulterers are a major part of the issue?

Where do the rich and powerful families from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan and anywhere else send their children to university? Pakistan?

If only.

The global ruling elite is just that - global. They might pander to domestic political prejudices a la Imran Khan, but if Tony Abbott could call on an imaginary noble past of perceived order, virtue and comfy class and gender roles, he would.

Militant fundamentalism is a particularly modern phenomenon. Like Fascist Italy, it references a noble, expansionist past - in this case the Ottoman caliphate.

It was a fad that’s been dampened by the GFC. The Arab Spring started in Tunisia, sparked by the price of imported wheat.

Laws and values in the Muslim world - just like everywhere else - are a response to global economic conditions far more than 7th century jurisprudence.

The one exception I can think of is Saudi Arabia. That place is an enigma - obscenely rich, but stubbornly backward, cruel and hypocritical. A good argument against that kind of wealth, perhaps.

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #193 - Jan 16^th, 2013 at 11:20pm

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:29pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:18pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 9:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:36pm:

We now live in a global economic system bound by treaties, trade agreements, the UN, the IMF, international education standards and the English language. The days of insular, isolated states with truly sovereign laws are long gone.

"And all disputes are successfully resolved by that superb supra-national body, the United Nations. It is never so called entities like 'France' than actually intervene (as we speak, smacking inconveniently for your mind-sappingly idiotic little thesis) in so called entities like 'Mali'. "

Wha' 'appened, PB? World not conforming to your stupid fantasy?

Sorry to interrupt, old chap, but were you about to make a point?

Please continue. It’s rivetting.

"The French government has thrown down the gauntlet to the jihadists of Ansar Dine and their fellow travelers in Mali -- and insists its goal is nothing short of eradicating these militant groups."

No IMF, UN, treaties and supranational handwringing-fest.
Past you by, no doubt.

"France’s army chief says French troops have begun a ground offensive in Mali and will be in direct combat with Islamist rebels soon."

I missed the UN smacking debate and resolution. Please point us to them, PB, it musta happened while I blinked in this post-national, supranational, international education in English world.

"French" response (ie Muslim aliens in Paris)?
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130114064358-09-mali-conflict-0114-horiz...

Yes. And guess who’s leading the Multinational force: Nigeria.

It’s marvellous to see your boys marching in step to the tinted races, old chap.

Thinking of volunteering? We need good men on the ground.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #194 - Jan 17^th, 2013 at 6:52am

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Militant fundamentalism is a particularly modern phenomenon. Like Fascist Italy, it references a noble, expansionist past - in this case the Ottoman caliphate.

It was a fad that’s been dampened by the GFC. The Arab Spring started in Tunisia, sparked by the price of imported wheat.

Pew research over the 10 years since 9/11 have clearly demonstrated that support for Osama bin Laden in the muslim world is directly proportional to the level of western intervention in the muslim world. It is very consistent across the board.

Since the arab spring, support for Al-Qaeda has been at record lows. As you point out, the arab spring was all about prices and frustration over political stagnation. In ALL cases - Tunisia, Egypt, Libya Yemen, Syria - it was secularlists protesting for economic and political reforms. Only after the movements got out of the regimes' hands did the islamists join in - and it wasn't even the extremist AQ type.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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