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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #15 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:42pm

Quote:

You have no idea what you are talking about. Islam is a text-based religion, and therefore talking about what islam does and doesn't permit has to have a textual basis. If you are talking about what muslims do in practice, then that is not the same thing, and you need to make the distinction.

Well I still haven't figured out which article you are referring to. The faith ratchet one is about the militant expansionism of the Caliphate, which would put it more in the 'in practice' category. However there are plenty of links with textual references along with interpretation by distingusihed gentlemen if you can be bothered chasing them up.

Quote:

rubbish. The two "references" you give for the rape claims give nothing of relevance

You are confused gandalf. We were talking about necrophilia. If you are going to keep changing the topic, please give a link to which part of the wiki you are referring to. For your convenience, each section has a direct link to it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #16 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:53pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:42pm:

You are confused gandalf. We were talking about necrophilia. If you are going to keep changing the topic, please give a link to which part of the wiki you are referring to. For your convenience, each section has a direct link to it.

To clarify, this is what I'm talking about - direct from the faith ratchet article:
Quote:

Islam uses sex as a weapon both for internal control and for militant expansionism (see rape and love). It creates a slavery - rape and pillage complex [5] that further facilitates the spread of Islam.

as "sources" you linked two threads which has nothing whatsoever of worth - apart from the only muslim in the discussion directly rejecting your claim.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #17 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 2:16pm

I see. The first two links are actually rape and love. Maybe I need to adjust the fonts so it stands out more. Each of these link to the relevant section in the Islam and Australian values page, which go into detail about Islam's take on the two issues, and also provide links with further explanation from good Muslims such as yourself and Abu.

Unfortunately I was not able to find a quote where Muhammed explicitly laid out his plan to use sex as an empire building tool.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #18 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:15pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 2:16pm:

Unfortunately I was not able to find a quote where Muhammed explicitly laid out his plan to use sex as an empire building tool.

So what is it based on? Do you enjoy just throwing out baseless smears on islam? - shame on you.

Quote:

Each of these link to the relevant section in the Islam and Australian values page, which go into detail about Islam's take on the two issues, and also provide links with further explanation from good Muslims such as yourself and Abu.

Thats funny because in both of the threads you linked on rape Falah makes it quite clear that he doesn't believe islam promotes rape or violence against women. Its funny because all this time you've been arguing that your negative claims about islam only come from muslims like Abu and falah - and that they should be the ones being questioned about the claims, not you. Now we have these same muslims uncategorically rejecting these claims, whats your excuse now?

On the issue of domestic violence, if you were honest you would have opened up with something similar to wikipedia, which says:
Quote:

The relationship between Islam and domestic violence is disputed. Even among Muslims, the uses and interpretations of shari’a, the moral code and religious law of Islam, lack consensus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence

Stating that islam promotes sexual violence as undisputed fact - and not even provide any evidence for it - just makes you look like a bigot.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #19 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:35pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:26am:

So what actual Muslims say is a baseless source for what Muslims say, or for Islam in general?

It is baseless for the case of islamic jurisprudence - which is what you are talking about.

You either have to reference the relevant islamic text yourself, or quote someone who is an authority on islamic text - who themselves quote relevant passages.

But not only this, you then need to present the other side - which in the case of Islamic jurisprudence there always is.

There is almost no unanimity amongst islamic scholars on just about any issue of islamic law,

and I can guarantee you that even if there is a scholarly opinion supporting some of these claims of yours, there are other equally valid opinions that disagree.

Exactly so !

e.g.

gandalf,

It is >> ISLAM << which is practised in Saudi Arabia.

It is >> ISLAM << which is practised in Iran.

The fact that those two jurisdiction both claim that they are the sole authority for ISLAMIC jurisprudence is the point.

The 'point' is that each an every moslem has his own opinion about ISLAM.

And anyone who disagrees with >> HIM <<, >> HIS FAMILY <<, >> HIS TRIBE <<, >> HIS SECT <<, >> HIS IMAM <<, is an infidel
.....and deserves to die!

i.e.

I am a rightly guided moslem, and the correct path which ISLAM teaches is not open to debate.
And if you do not believe what i believe, i will kill you, YOU %$$#@ INFIDEL!!

WHICH MEANS THIS

, [imagine for a moment that i am moslem "A"];
1/ The differing doctrinal point of view, "XYZ" [which is my p.o.v.], is valid. [ <---- according to me, because i am a rightly guided moslem "A" !!]
2/ BUT at the same time, every doctrinal differing point of view [e.g. "XYZ"] is invalid. [ according to 'other' these moslems ----->, "B", "D", "E", "F", "G", "H", "I", "J"....all the way to "Z", and beyond!]

Q.
So who is the REAL, correct moslem ????????????

A.
The REAL and 'rightly guided' moslem, is the moslem who has the ability to successfully silence [i.e. murder] all dissenting voices.

AND THAT, IS HOW ISLAM WORKS.

NOT BY REASON.

BUT BY FORCE OF VIOLENCE.

gandalf,

Is that the world that you want to belong to ?

From my archive;

Quote:

06 May 2007
Mosque violence Tensions boil over after move to replace imam
Paul Maley
A BITTER factional feud within Canberra's Islamic community has erupted into violence with a leading member being punched repeatedly in the grounds of the mosque at Yarralumla.
Secretary of the ACT Islamic Society Kurt Kennedy said he was set upon shortly after announcing the appointment of a new imam to replace the controversial Mohammed Swaiti.
He was assaulted while waiting on the mosque grounds for a lift home after announcing Mr Swaiti had been dumped and naming the new imam as Yahya Atay.
......"When our secretary Kurt Kennedy announced ... the new imam will deliver the [Friday speech] before prayer, two people jumped up and grabbed Kurt and pushed him around," he told the Canberra Sunday Times.
"They pushed him and wanted to throw him out of the mosque.
"Then the imam [Mr Swaiti] started screaming in the middle of the mosque, 'I am the imam of this mosque! I am the imam who will service you people! I will never step down! No one can force me to step down! I will be here until the day I die!"'

http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=general&story_id...i

Listen gandalf,

I AM, a moslem!!! [honest! Cheesy

]

And if you do not believe, what i believe, I AM GOING TO RIGHTEOUSLY KILL YOU!!

Got it ?

So, you better listen up sunshine, because i am the rightly guided moslem, and everyone who has a differing p.o.v. is an infidel.

And it is totally lawful for me to kill you.

That criminal intent [against non-moslems], is promoted and encouraged in the Koran, is clear;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98
COMMENT; Promoting to moslems that 'unbelief' in Allah, is a crime.

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11
COMMENT; Justifying moslem violence against non-moslems.

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76
COMMENT; Promoting to moslems that fighting against 'unbelievers' is sanctified. And that fighting against 'unbelievers' is 'good works'. Because moslems are told that 'unbelievers' [of Allah] are in league with SATAN. So that, is presented as a justification, for moslems to fight against ALL 'unbelievers'.

And the incitement to violence [against non-moslems] goes on, and on....

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #20 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:25pm

Quote:

So what is it based on? Do you enjoy just throwing out baseless smears on islam? - shame on you.

Follow the links gandalf.

Quote:

Thats funny because in both of the threads you linked on rape Falah makes it quite clear that he doesn't believe islam promotes rape or violence against women.

He also said that it is not rape if you have sex with your wife or sex slave without her consent - as I explained in the article. These are the smoke and mirrors I am trying to see through with this. Merely trying to spin it some other way does not actually contradict what the article says.

Quote:

Its funny because all this time you've been arguing that your negative claims about islam only come from muslims like Abu and falah - and that they should be the ones being questioned about the claims, not you.

That's right.

Quote:

Now we have these same muslims uncategorically rejecting these claims, whats your excuse now?

You should look again. It is very categorical. He basically only rejects my interpretation of the facts, not the facts themselves. A bit like you really. The article outlines quite clearly what those facts are, unlike Falah and Abu.

Quote:

On the issue of domestic violence, if you were honest you would have opened up with something similar to wikipedia, which says:

Did you read the entry on domestic violence? It acknowledges the disagreement and the range of views. Acknowledging the reality that women will get beaten while clerics argue over how badly they may be beaten does not mislead in any way.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #21 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:25pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:19pm:

gandalf,

Is that the world that you want to belong to ?

From my archive;

Quote:

06 May 2007
Mosque violence Tensions boil over after move to replace imam
Paul Maley
A BITTER factional feud within Canberra's Islamic community has erupted into violence with a leading member being punched repeatedly in the grounds of the mosque at Yarralumla.
Secretary of the ACT Islamic Society Kurt Kennedy said he was set upon shortly after announcing the appointment of a new imam to replace the controversial Mohammed Swaiti.
He was assaulted while waiting on the mosque grounds for a lift home after announcing Mr Swaiti had been dumped and naming the new imam as Yahya Atay.
......"When our secretary Kurt Kennedy announced ... the new imam will deliver the [Friday speech] before prayer, two people jumped up and grabbed Kurt and pushed him around," he told the Canberra Sunday Times.
"They pushed him and wanted to throw him out of the mosque.
"Then the imam [Mr Swaiti] started screaming in the middle of the mosque, 'I am the imam of this mosque! I am the imam who will service you people! I will never step down! No one can force me to step down! I will be here until the day I die!"'

http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=general&story_id...

p.s.
the link is now dead, but you may still be able to find a valid reference to it with Google.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #22 - Jan 6^th, 2013 at 9:38pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 1:30pm: you and your buddy islamophobes raving. It's a phobia of Islamo-phonies
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #23 - Jan 7^th, 2013 at 7:13am

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

You should look again. It is very categorical. He basically only rejects my interpretation of the facts, not the facts themselves. A bit like you really. The article outlines quite clearly what those facts are, unlike Falah and Abu.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1332074116

scroll down to post #8. Remember this is your one and only "source" for your claim that "Rape is permitted in Islam in the same situations that sex is permitted." (which you link to in your ratchet article).

So on post #8 falah thoroughly and meticulously refutes all your rape claims - not just the marriage one, but also the slave claims.
See he actually quotes the relevant texts, and you had nothing to counter this - and yes I went through and read the entire 4 page thread. You basically gave up on that point. And yet you somehow use this as the one and only "source" for the outrageous claim in your first sentence on the rape chapter.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #24 - Jan 7^th, 2013 at 9:57am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7^th, 2013 at 7:13am:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

You should look again. It is very categorical. He basically only rejects my interpretation of the facts, not the facts themselves. A bit like you really. The article outlines quite clearly what those facts are, unlike Falah and Abu.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1332074116

scroll down to post #8. Remember this is your one and only "source" for your claim that "Rape is permitted in Islam in the same situations that sex is permitted." (which you link to in your ratchet article).

So on post #8 falah thoroughly and meticulously refutes all your rape claims - not just the marriage one, but also the slave claims.
See he actually quotes the relevant texts, and you had nothing to counter this

- and yes I went through and read the entire 4 page thread. You basically gave up on that point. And yet you somehow use this as the one and only "source" for the outrageous claim in your first sentence on the rape chapter.

gandalf,

Your conclusion is wrong.

Your conclusion is based upon falahs' misrepresenting the information on that matter [i.e. of the issue of having forced sex, with captive women].

Quote:

...And force not your female slaves into sexual service, if they desire chastity...

[Quran an-Noor, v.33]

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1332074116/8#8

+++

"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"
Koran 24.33

Koran 24.33, DOES NOT prohibit 'forcing' a captive female slave [i.e. having non-consensual sex with a with captive women slave].

It says; DO NOT FORCE A CAPTIVE FEMALE SLAVE INTO PROSTITUTION, FOR >> YOUR << OWN MONETARY GAIN.

+++

In ISLAM, Mohammed [and all of his righteous deeds], is the 'gold standard', conduct wise, for other moslems.

Allah himself said, that because Mohammed was an extraordinarily righteous man [in Allah's eyes!], that Mohammed was the example, the type of man that other moslem men were to imitate, in their own deeds.

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah."

Koran 33.21

Google;
good muslim, imitating the sunnah of prophet mohammed

Here is an account of the deeds [the sunnah] of ISLAM's 'prophet' engaged in, from the Hadith;

Mohammed and his companions went on a raiding party.
'and took captive some excellent Arab women',
'and we desired them',
'for we were suffering from the absence of our wives',
'So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them' [i.e. have non-consensual sex with their captive 'excellent Arab women']
'(but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them.' [i.e. Mohammed's companions intended to sell/ransom their captive 'excellent Arab women' back to their menfolk]

THAT ACCOUNT [OF NON CONSENSUAL SEX BY MOHAMMED AND HIS COMPANIONS] IS SOURCED FROM ISLAMIC TEXTS - THE HADITH

These ISLAMIC texts, below [among others], guide moslems in their daily conduct, in following their faith.

hadith/muslim/ #008.3371
hadith/muwatta/ #029.29.32.95
hadith/muwatta/ #036.36.23.24
hadith/bukhari/ #008.077.600
hadith/bukhari/ #003.046.718
hadith/bukhari/ #005.059.459

+++

Rape your 'war booty', its OK, say ISLAMIC texts
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1251760605/0#0

Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1251431040/8#8

These Hadith [which are 'sanctified' ISLAMIC] texts are a witness against Mohammed, [and they prove, by any normal reasoning] that Mohammed was altogether, a rapist, a fornicator, and an adulterer.
n.b.
All of these crimes [of Mohammed,] are supposedly punishable in ISLAM.
But Mohammed, Allah's prophet, was protected by Allah's law.

Why so ???

Because stealing the property of non-moslems, and the rape of captive non-moslem women is 'sanctified', BY ALLAH HIMSELF...

"..Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:..."
Koran 4.22-24

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;..."
Koran 33.50

"those whom your right hands possess" = = female captives, of war.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #25 - Jan 7^th, 2013 at 11:09am

I don’t understand Freediver’s anti-Muslim cause here. He says it started after reading Abu’s replies and evasions, which is understandable, but it seems to have taken over his life. It’s a phenomenon that blocks out all evidence to the contrary and falls for its own spin.

Having seen the emotions, the lack of reasoning, simple common sense, and the all-out hysteria, I now know how cops could finger the wrong guy. The sense of self-righteousness is strong enough to block out a conscience, and the win-at-all-costs mindset blocks out any sense of proportion.

Facts are distorted or disgarded and replaced with cliques. Contrary evidence is ignored because a judgement is already made - any contrary evidence must be a lie. Anyone who speaks against the ridiculous allegations is defending the criminal, and therefore a criminal themselves.

If you apply this thinking to a society, you can see how huge parts of the population can be purged, falsely convicted and sent to the gulags. This sort of world has its origins in the type of "research" that forms this thread. It’s why checks and balances like fact sourcing, referencing and peer-review are so important. It’s why critical thinking and education are so fundamental to a healthy society.

It’s why calling the bullsh!t every time is so important. If Alan and co get away with it, their power grows. Mind you, they don’t see reason when you call them on their crap. They go straight into defensive mode and spew out more crap.

But it has to be called - that’s what makes our society better than the days of purges and witchunts. It’s what makes us fair.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #26 - Jan 7^th, 2013 at 11:38am

Yadda wrote on Jan 7^th, 2013 at 9:57am:

gandalf,

Your conclusion is wrong.

Your conclusion is based upon falahs' misrepresenting the information on that matter

Yadda I'm not making a conclusion about the the factual basis of Falah's claim (though of course he is right). I'm pointing out the intellectual dishonesty (or more accurately, intellectual idiocy) of freediver's anti-islam diatribe, and the inappropriateness of using these anti-islam threads (that he always starts) as sources for his outrageous claims.

The source he used for the rape claim would be appropriate for a statement such as "some muslims reject the legitimacy of rape in islam, and cite several hadith and sunna related to the treatment of women as evidence." He could then go on and cite you, for example, as an illustration of the sorts of non-muslim criticism for that sort of position. The point is, its just absurd to make an article that at least has the impression of being factual and objective, stating as unquestioned facts things that have an enormous amount of dispute even (and especially) amongst muslims themselves. Either way, the way he has sourced that article is simply farcical from an academic point of view, and would be laughed out of a high school classroom.

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« Last Edit: Jan 7^th, 2013 at 11:44am by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #27 - Jan 7^th, 2013 at 12:30pm

Quote:

scroll down to post #8. Remember this is your one and only "source" for your claim that "Rape is permitted in Islam in the same situations that sex is permitted.

1) It is not my only source. There are lots of them. The wiki entry goes into more detail, and gives more links.

2) In that post Falah explains that Islam permits both wife beating and spousal rape.

Quote:

So on post #8 falah thoroughly and meticulously refutes all your rape claims

No he doesn't. He merely attempts to put a positive spin on spousal rape. That is not the same thing. What do you think this means gandalf?

If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so.

Try thinking for yourself gandalf. If someone says Islam forbids rape, but also says a wife has no right to deny her husband sex, and cannot give any punishment for spousal rape, then Islam permits rape.

If you disagree with me, perhaps you could tell everyone what the appropriate Islamic punishment is for spousal rape and some examples of Muhammed or his successors punishing people for it?

Quote:

It’s why calling the bullsh!t every time is so important.

OK Karnal, what do you think of the claims that Falah denied that Islam permits spousal rape?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #28 - Jan 7^th, 2013 at 12:44pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 7^th, 2013 at 11:09am:

I don’t understand Freediver’s anti-Muslim cause here. He says it started after reading Abu’s replies and evasions, which is understandable, but it seems to have taken over his life. It’s a phenomenon that blocks out all evidence to the contrary and falls for its own spin.

Yadda holds up a mirror to K.

Quote:

Having seen the emotions, the lack of reasoning, simple common sense, and the all-out hysteria, I now know how cops could finger the wrong guy. The sense of self-righteousness is strong enough to block out a conscience, and the win-at-all-costs mindset blocks out any sense of proportion.

Yadda holds up a mirror to K.

Quote:

Facts are distorted or disgarded and replaced with cliques. Contrary evidence is ignored because a judgement is already made - any contrary evidence must be a lie. Anyone who speaks against the ridiculous allegations is defending the criminal, and therefore a criminal themselves.

Yadda holds up a mirror to K.

K,

When have you ever seriously criticised ISLAM and its criminal and vicious 'ideals' ?

Or is you argument, that the case against ISLAM [i.e. the case that ISLAM is in effect a criminal philosophy], is not proven ?

n.b. what K says.....
".....It’s a phenomenon that blocks out all evidence to the contrary and falls for its own spin."

Quote:

If you apply this thinking to a society, you can see how huge parts of the population can be purged, falsely convicted and sent to the gulags. This sort of world has its origins in the type of "research" that forms this thread. It’s why checks and balances like fact sourcing, referencing and peer-review are so important. It’s why critical thinking and education are so fundamental to a healthy society.

I agree.

And critical thinking and education [which you claim are so fundamental to a healthy society], ARE PRECISELY WHAT ISLAM HAS OUTLAWED.

K, you are a well speaking, .........hypocrite!

Critical thinking?, ....peer review ?

K,

Who should judge ISLAM ?

1 - - Only moslems ?

2 - - Only an 'entitled' academia ???

3 - - Only those who agree with the 'candied' perceptions of an ignorant majority ???

4 - - Only those with a vested [corrupt] interest in coming to a pre-conceived [self-serving] determination ???

5 - - Only those who agree with YOUR world view ?

Quote:

It’s why calling the bullsh!t every time is so important. If Alan and co get away with it, their power grows. Mind you, they don’t see reason when you call them on their crap. They go straight into defensive mode and spew out more crap.

Yadda holds up a mirror to K.i Quote:

But it has to be called - that’s what makes our society better than the days of purges and witchunts. It’s what makes us fair.

There is no 'fairness', unless the oppressors and criminals are judged and condemned.

There is no 'fairness', unless the the victims of oppressors and criminals, SEE that their the oppressors are judged and condemned.

Where is the 'fairness' when the mainstream media and a justice system turn away from what is true, so as to >> UNFAIRLY << protect a favoured criminal minority, because they claim to belong to a religion ?i+++

K, got any inanities which you now want to post ????

OBSERVATION;
If you defeat K's argument in debate [with logic], K will always revert to responding with absurdities.

Quote:

K is capable of presenting a reasonable argument, and engaging in reasoned debate.

But what you must understand about K and his debating style, is that if you defeat K's argument in debate [by presenting a fact supported counter argument],
K will never cleanly concede [by acknowledgement, or, with his silence] that you have defeated his argument.

Of course, K would try present another counter argument, to try to defeat your argument, if he could.

But unable to defeat your argument with sound reason [or with supporting facts] K will then, ALWAYS, resort to responding with absurdities.

....With K, it seems to be an ego 'defence mechanism'.

Defeat K's argument, and all he has left is inane reply, ....which is intended to deflect [and discredit] the thrust of your own reasoned argument.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1356906751/62#62

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #29 - Jan 7^th, 2013 at 1:03pm

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2013 at 12:30pm:

Try thinking for yourself gandalf. If someone says Islam forbids rape, but also says a wife has no right to deny her husband sex, and cannot give any punishment for spousal rape, then Islam permits rape.

Firstly, please quote Falah saying the husband cannot be given any punishment for spousal rape. Secondly, you have fallen for one of the most common fallacies about islam: refusing sex by the woman is a sin, therefore a man has the right to rape his wife. Right?

No.

The two do not follow. One sin does not justify another. If the man feels wronged by his wife refusing sex, there is a proper procedure to go through, and it most definitely does not include raping his wife. Actually Falah put it best in the thread you used as "proof" of islam's sanction of rape:

Quote:

The beating is considered a last resort in he case of a rebellious wife, and requires leaving the marital bed beforehand. So obviously, it is not a tool to force women to have sex, because a condition for beaing the wife is to leave the marital bed.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1332074116/8#8

Maybe you could do what I did and actually quote what he says, rather than just make poo up.

But this is of course missing the point. Even if some anonymous dude on the internet called Falah came out and said "I am a muslim, and I say rape is a-ok in islam", is that proof for a claim like "rape is permitted in islam"? Of course not. Even if it did have a textual basis, why would you take some anonymous guy on the internet as the ultimate authority on islam? Its almost as stupid as you making a claim in your wiki article, and then using the same claim made by freediver in a thread on ozpolitics as the definitive proof of that claim Cheesy

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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