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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #45 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am

Soren, there is much positive, civil interfaith dialogue happening all over the world involving Muslim thinkers (universally recognised or not). Of course it is possible for Muslims to discuss Islamic principles within the context of secularism or democracy etc. There needn't be a "clash" of contexts if there is a mutual respect and a genuine desire for understanding.

The problem with the majority of Muslims is their inability to answer strong criticism of Islam without having an emotional meltdown as shown by the reaction to the film last year, the cartoons, etc. I was reading about the Rushdie affair today and one of the women that orchestrated the protests was saying that, retrospectively, she is ashamed of the demands they made ..that she found them embarrassing looking back.

I don't have any answers about how to get past those emotional reactions and the problems they cause. I haven't yet thought deeply enough about their cause. I know it's gotten understandably worse since 9/11 -by worse I mean it's become a broader problem within the general Muslim population, but still, by no means universal.

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I do not want Islam to become my context because I think it is incredible, malevolent, repulsive.

Who has attempted to make Islam your context?

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #46 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:03pm

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2013 at 7:06pm:

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Freediver, your wiki smacks of your contempt of Islam and Muslims. I have no problem with that in itself - you have made it repeatedly clear how you feel about it often enough. The thing is, the articles contain false information that you are too lazy to actually check the validity of yourself. There is a wealth of information out there, yet you choose to selectively reference two members of your board who make no claim to Islamic scholarship. If that wasn't bad enough, you twist their words to suit the purposes of your own beliefs. Have you ever thought of just reading the Quran youself?

Apparently you have to learn to speak arabic and take classes in the fine art of abrogation and other techniques of 'interpretation' for it to make any sense.

Yes, FD, Believe it or not, there are people doing classes in Bible study too. There are Christians studying Biblical Greek, Jews studying Hebrew, Hindus and Buddhists studying Sanskrit and Pali.

I'd say it's imperative. If you want to understand religious texts, you need to have some knowledge about the language and context in which they were written.

You shouldn't need to to get the main gist - but if you want a deeper understanding, you'd want to. Some texts contain very little of the original meaning in the translation.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #47 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:19pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

The problem with the majority of Muslims is their inability to answer strong criticism of Islam without having an emotional meltdown as shown by the reaction to the film last year, the cartoons, etc.

Fair point, and as a muslim I accept we need to grow up and 'take it on the chin' much better. I wouldn't say however that the 'emotional meltdown' we saw over the film in any way encompassed the majority of muslims. What I saw was a fairly small bunch of Lebanese in Sydney acting like idiots - who we know have their own history with poverty and unemployment. What I also saw was strong condemnation amongst muslim leaders, as well as muslim commentators such as Waleed Ali.

But this is not just about the muslims. Non-muslims need to play their part as well. And that includes not being tunnel visioned about how muslims behave, and attribute the actions of a minority to the majority. Again, the film protests are a good example: everyone thinks of the unfortunate behaviour of some thugs in Sydney, but seem to forget the unambiguous and unanimous condemnation from the country's muslim leadership. This is particularly annoying when one of the most common cries of islam's critics is "the mainstream never condemn the extremists".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #48 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:22pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

Of course it is possible for Muslims to discuss Islamic principles within the context of secularism or democracy etc.

I do not think so. This is like saying that it is possible for me to critically discuss democratic, secular principles from a Muslim/Islamic perspective (ie thinking like a Muslim). But I could not look at secular, democratic principles from a Muslim perspective as I think it is an untenable position.

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Soren

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #49 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:23pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

The problem with the majority of Muslims is their inability to answer strong criticism of Islam without having an emotional meltdown as shown by the reaction to the film last year, the cartoons, etc.

No wonder - it is against Islam to criticise Islam.

How could they accept strong criticism of it without experiencing cognitive meltdown?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #50 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:27pm Soren, muslims can and do accept criticism. You just choose not to notice it, preferring instead to focus only on the minority who can't accept it.
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Soren

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #51 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

The problem with the majority of Muslims is their inability to answer strong criticism of Islam without having an emotional meltdown as shown by the reaction to the film last year, the cartoons, etc.

Fair point, and as a muslim I accept we need to grow up and 'take it on the chin' much better. I wouldn't say however that the 'emotional meltdown' we saw over the film in any way encompassed the majority of muslims. What I saw was a fairly small bunch of Lebanese in Sydney acting like idiots - who we know have their own history with poverty and unemployment. What I also saw was strong condemnation amongst muslim leaders, as well as muslim commentators such as Waleed Ali.

But this is not just about the muslims. Non-muslims need to play their part as well. And that includes not being tunnel visioned about how muslims behave, and attribute the actions of a minority to the majority. Again, the film protests are a good example: everyone thinks of the unfortunate behaviour of some thugs in Sydney, but seem to forget the unambiguous and unanimous condemnation from the country's muslim leadership. This is particularly annoying when one of the most common cries of islam's critics is "the mainstream never condemn the extremists".

Muslims and Islam are unattractive. Transgressions by unattractive people and doctrines are not easily forgiven. Contrast that with, say, rock and roll. A corrosive, stupid thing, too, yes, but done by atrractive people - and now it's mainstream, even heard as musak in lifts and at Lowes.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #52 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

The problem with the majority of Muslims is their inability to answer strong criticism of Islam without having an emotional meltdown as shown by the reaction to the film last year, the cartoons, etc.

Fair point, and as a muslim I accept we need to grow up and 'take it on the chin' much better. I wouldn't say however that the 'emotional meltdown' we saw over the film in any way encompassed the majority of muslims. What I saw was a fairly small bunch of Lebanese in Sydney acting like idiots - who we know have their own history with poverty and unemployment. What I also saw was strong condemnation amongst muslim leaders, as well as muslim commentators such as Waleed Ali.

Hi Gandalf

I was not just talking about the protests. Most Muslims I know seemed personally offended by the film, even if they condemned the protests themselves.

I have read the Aly article before. I didn't like it because I thought it was overly harsh. I usually appreciate his commentary, but this time it felt like he sold out - that his main intention was to distance himself from the furor by insulting the general Muslim population.

Quote:

But this is not just about the muslims. Non-muslims need to play their part as well. And that includes not being tunnel visioned about how muslims behave, and attribute the actions of a minority to the majority. Again, the film protests are a good example: everyone thinks of the unfortunate behaviour of some thugs in Sydney, but seem to forget the unambiguous and unanimous condemnation from the country's muslim leadership. This is particularly annoying when one of the most common cries of islam's critics is "the mainstream never condemn the extremists".

I couldn't agree more. I said the emotional sensitivity has gotten understandably worse - this is a direct result of Western attitudes toward Muslims. This is no more a universal attitude than the violent one attributed to Muslims, but like the voices of the extremist Muslim fringe, it's loud and penetrating.

Only when we tune out the voices of extremists on both sides will we make any significant progress toward harmony - within Australia and throughout the world. While I believe everyone has the right to be heard, the focus needs to shift.

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« Last Edit: Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:48pm by Annie Anthrax »

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #53 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:44pm

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:22pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

Of course it is possible for Muslims to discuss Islamic principles within the context of secularism or democracy etc.

I do not think so. This is like saying that it is possible for me to critically discuss democratic, secular principles from a Muslim/Islamic perspective (ie thinking like a Muslim). But I could not look at secular, democratic principles from a Muslim perspective as I think it is an untenable position.

You won't (not can't) look at things from a different perspective because your mind is closed to it. Not everyone is so willfully unbendable. I discussed secular principles fom a Muslim perspective when I was a Muslim and I can discuss Islamic principles in what I hope is an objective way from a non-Muslim point of view now.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #54 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:47pm

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

The problem with the majority of Muslims is their inability to answer strong criticism of Islam without having an emotional meltdown as shown by the reaction to the film last year, the cartoons, etc.

Fair point, and as a muslim I accept we need to grow up and 'take it on the chin' much better. I wouldn't say however that the 'emotional meltdown' we saw over the film in any way encompassed the majority of muslims. What I saw was a fairly small bunch of Lebanese in Sydney acting like idiots - who we know have their own history with poverty and unemployment. What I also saw was strong condemnation amongst muslim leaders, as well as muslim commentators such as Waleed Ali.

But this is not just about the muslims. Non-muslims need to play their part as well. And that includes not being tunnel visioned about how muslims behave, and attribute the actions of a minority to the majority. Again, the film protests are a good example: everyone thinks of the unfortunate behaviour of some thugs in Sydney, but seem to forget the unambiguous and unanimous condemnation from the country's muslim leadership. This is particularly annoying when one of the most common cries of islam's critics is "the mainstream never condemn the extremists".

Muslims and Islam are unattractive. Transgressions by unattractive people and doctrines are not easily forgiven. Contrast that with, say, rock and roll. A corrosive, stupid thing, too, yes, but done by atrractive people - and now it's mainstream, even heard as musak in lifts and at Lowes.

Far out, Soren. That is ridiculous.

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Soren

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #55 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:55pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:29pm:

Muslims and Islam are unattractive. Transgressions by unattractive people and doctrines are not easily forgiven. Contrast that with, say, rock and roll. A corrosive, stupid thing, too, yes, but done by atrractive people - and now it's mainstream, even heard as musak in lifts and at Lowes.

Far out, Soren. That is ridiculous.

Look into your heart. Whose company would you prefer.

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Karnal

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #56 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 1:00pm

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 10:59am:

[quote author=Natalie link=1357182115/43#43 date=1357691750] [quote]

But there is a central element to the debate between Muslims and non-Muslims and that is the notion of context itself.

For Muslims like Abu and Falah et al, Islam is the context as well as the topic. For FD et al, Islam is the topic but most definitely not the context. So when someone who rejects Islam's credibility or harmlessness responds to a Muslim's point about Islam (made in the context of being Muslim, Islamic), it will always be out of context as far as the Muslim party is concerned.

True, old boy. It's the same in Christianity. I know some Hillsong Pentecostals. They believe you don't properly understand the Bible without receiving the Holy Spirit first. For them, the Bible can't be read as intended (i.e, as the Word of God) without "committing your life to Jesus".

What they mean by this is committing your life to Jesus and then taking a number of Hillsong classes in how to understand the Bible better. As you do this, you "grow in the Spirit" and your understanding of the Word of God increases. You receive "revelation" directly through the "Spirit". Some even speak in tongues.

Thanks to the Holy Spirit, you come to understand all the Hillsong teachings on subjects as wide-ranging as the correct roles of husbands and wives in marriage, the evils of homosexuality, the lies spread by the global warming crowd, and the correct role of government in providing a defence force, a police force, jails, and no more. You understand these things through "divine revelation". You might have a vision, or receive someone else's tongues. Such is the power of the Word of God.

As demons are banished from your life, God inspires you to dress better, wear the same makeup as the other girls, and use similar language such as "awesome", "cool" and "all good". Before long, the material world gravitates to the power of the Holy Spirit in you and you become successful. You might get a promotion or new job. Your bank account attracts more money. You receive the money (or are able to get a loan) to buy a nice new car to drive to church in.

The power of the Holy Spirit is awesome. It can move mountains. Once you witness it in your life, you realize how lost you were before you received it. You understand your former life - along with those who have not received the Spirit yet - as hopeless, unsuccessful, and driven by demons and afflictions. You realize how addicted to smoking and drinking you were, how trapped in failure and hopelessness. You come to share your story with fellow seekers, telling them how lost you were before you found Jesus. They tell you similar stories. All of you agree that the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives is awesome.

As you can see, none of this happens without taking the first step and giving your life to Jesus. It's the most important thing in life you can do - everything else is secondary to this commitment. You can never understand this without doing it. It's not an intellectual process. You won't understand the Bible, life, God or anything until you make this decision and back it up by seeking out the wise counsel of a pastor and the fellowship of a spiritual community like Hillsong.

Non-Christians don't understand the Word of God - how could they? Sadly, they'll be condemned to hell, along with all the atheists, Muslims, evolutionists and everyone else. If someone living a Satanic life tries to read the Bible, they won't get it. It's a complete waste - as Jesus said, it's like throwing pearls before swine.

The Bible isn't just a book with words. As the Word of God, it can only be understood properly by someone in the Holy Spirit.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #57 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 1:04pm Gawd, you're long winded, PB. WHat's your point?
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Faith Ratchet Reply #58 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 1:05pm To make the proper comparison, you'd need to look at the fans of rock n roll - or in this case, The Beatles. The answer to your question - I'd give both a wide berth.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Faith Ratchet
Reply #59 - Jan 9^th, 2013 at 1:06pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 9^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

Hi Gandalf

I was not just talking about the protests. Most Muslims I know seemed personally offended by the film, even if they condemned the protests themselves.

Hi Annie

. I don't think its a simple matter of being irrationally offended by a silly film. I believe the film was part of a wider malicious campaign going on in parts the west to deliberately alienate their muslim populations. It is designed - very successfully - as a self-fulfilling prophecy - to "prove" that islam is intolerant and hostile to free speech - and therefore incompatible in western society. It is this very overt campaign that I believe muslims are so incensed by, not the content of the actual film - which as Waleed Ali pointed out, most protesters have not even seen.

Thus you can see why "mainstream" muslims are so hurt by this - not because they are so hostile to any criticism of islam, but because they are offended by the message that they cannot, and should not "fit in" to western society. This is deeply hurtful because these people have successfully integrated and are proud members of western society.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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