Australian Politics Forum - Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries

Doctor Jolly

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #60 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:12pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:48pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:33pm:

And that is the truth of the matter...Per capita, by country is irrelevant..the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else......

Yes. So why do you keep insisting on telling us about China? While Ignoring the century of emissions from the industrialised Western democracies?

the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else...your own words.

Exactly, the world doesnt care a poo about countries. It cares only about total co2 emitted. How we address that is per person.

If we only counted per-country emissions, and it got to the stage where the world was forcing Australia to halve its emissions, we could simply split the country in two to comply.

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freediver

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #61 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 7:42pm

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And that is the truth of the matter...Per capita, by country is irrelevant..the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else......

The people negotiating action do. Does that matter? Or do you enjoy coming up with theoretical solutions that are completely unworkable?

Basically, after many pages we have not progressed beyond people blurting out 'China is a really big country' and leaving it at that, incapable of attaching any further meaning to the outburst.

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woof woof

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #62 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 8:39pm

Per capita is a stupid arguement.
How many ppl in China are subsistance farmers living in mud huts with no electricity running water etc?? (200 million)

How many ppl in Australia live in houses with no electricity have a rice paddy in their backyard and sleep 20 ppl to a house with no power water etc???

SAre you suggesting we change our way of life to that of Chinese farmers??

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49030 At my desk.	Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries Reply #63 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 9:56pm Have you seen anyone suggest that?
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Emma

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #64 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 10:45pm

No Freediver...

and woof woof ??? I think your values are skewed... like lots of posters on this thread. You seek the sensational negative,, ... its the old story ... divide and conquer...

when we should be working together.. (the NEED never on this scale before)
and not likely to happen... Sad

there seems to be a mindset, no doubt present elsewhere in the world as well, but very obvious on this Forum.

I guess Ozzies, like other nations, along with Yanks and Russkies, and to a lesser extent, publicly, the Brits, for example..... all suffer from the knowledge that in the past, the developing world was sorely used!! ... and We were the beneficiaries, and knowing the human animal, being one, we are fearful of the consequences... of the price that must always be paid, in one way or another.

This growling about 'developing nations subsidies'.. is simply an expression of fear.
I'll add.... deservedly.....
It is also inherent in climate change (read degradation of Earth)_ deniers.!!

See ?? things like this don't come and go in 10 yrs..... they carry on for generations.... and , we all suffer the consequences of previous greed and corruption, ... as will surviving generations, after us.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #65 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 2:05am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:48pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:33pm:

And that is the truth of the matter...Per capita, by country is irrelevant..the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else......

Yes. So why do you keep insisting on telling us about China? While Ignoring the century of emissions from the industrialised Western democracies?

the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else...your own words.

Exactly, the world doesnt care a poo about countries. It cares only about total co2 emitted. How we address that is per person.

If we only counted per-country emissions, and it got to the stage where the world was forcing Australia to halve its emissions, we could simply split the country in two to comply.

This is a really funny comment...considering it was rabbitoh who first brought up the splitting countries apart to reduce emissions...which probably makes as much sense as the per capita by country idea...

Of course, see as Australia's emissions account for less that 1.5%, I think it'd be a long time before it got to that point...

Far better, as I've already said, to either base it on per capita, without basing it by country....so each person is equally accountable for a portion of the total amount of emissions..(world population divided by total ghg output) or, alternatively, start at the top of the tonnage produced list, and work down..and that means China, followed by America (see I DO include Western countries), then the Eurpoean Union, India, Russia etc etc....

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way, is going to make bugger all difference in reducing GHG emissions...

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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rabbitoh07

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #66 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 6:28am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 6^th, 2013 at 2:05am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:48pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:33pm:

And that is the truth of the matter...Per capita, by country is irrelevant..the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else......

Yes. So why do you keep insisting on telling us about China? While Ignoring the century of emissions from the industrialised Western democracies?

the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else...your own words.

Exactly, the world doesnt care a poo about countries. It cares only about total co2 emitted. How we address that is per person.

If we only counted per-country emissions, and it got to the stage where the world was forcing Australia to halve its emissions, we could simply split the country in two to comply.

This is a really funny comment...considering it was rabbitoh who first brought up the splitting countries apart to reduce emissions...which probably makes as much sense as the per capita by country idea...

Of course, see as Australia's emissions account for less that 1.5%, I think it'd be a long time before it got to that point...

Far better, as I've already said, to either base it on per capita, without basing it by country....so each person is equally accountable for a portion of the total amount of emissions..(world population divided by total ghg output) or, alternatively, start at the top of the tonnage produced list, and work down..and that means China, followed by America (see I DO include Western countries), then the Eurpoean Union, India, Russia etc etc....

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way, is going to make bugger all difference in reducing GHG emissions...

What about historic emissions?

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #67 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 9:10am

rabbitoh07 wrote on Feb 6^th, 2013 at 6:28am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 6^th, 2013 at 2:05am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:48pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:33pm:

And that is the truth of the matter...Per capita, by country is irrelevant..the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else......

Yes. So why do you keep insisting on telling us about China? While Ignoring the century of emissions from the industrialised Western democracies?

the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else...your own words.

Exactly, the world doesnt care a poo about countries. It cares only about total co2 emitted. How we address that is per person.

If we only counted per-country emissions, and it got to the stage where the world was forcing Australia to halve its emissions, we could simply split the country in two to comply.

This is a really funny comment...considering it was rabbitoh who first brought up the splitting countries apart to reduce emissions...which probably makes as much sense as the per capita by country idea...

Of course, see as Australia's emissions account for less that 1.5%, I think it'd be a long time before it got to that point...

Far better, as I've already said, to either base it on per capita, without basing it by country....so each person is equally accountable for a portion of the total amount of emissions..(world population divided by total ghg output) or, alternatively, start at the top of the tonnage produced list, and work down..and that means China, followed by America (see I DO include Western countries), then the Eurpoean Union, India, Russia etc etc....

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way, is going to make bugger all difference in reducing GHG emissions...

What about historic emissions?

What about them???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #68 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 10:07am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 6^th, 2013 at 2:05am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:48pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 4^th, 2013 at 10:33pm:

And that is the truth of the matter...Per capita, by country is irrelevant..the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else......

Yes. So why do you keep insisting on telling us about China? While Ignoring the century of emissions from the industrialised Western democracies?

the planet really doesn't care about countries or any thing else...your own words.

Exactly, the world doesnt care a poo about countries. It cares only about total co2 emitted. How we address that is per person.

If we only counted per-country emissions, and it got to the stage where the world was forcing Australia to halve its emissions, we could simply split the country in two to comply.

This is a really funny comment...considering it was rabbitoh who first brought up the splitting countries apart to reduce emissions...which probably makes as much sense as the per capita by country idea...

Of course, see as Australia's emissions account for less that 1.5%, I think it'd be a long time before it got to that point...

Far better, as I've already said, to either base it on per capita, without basing it by country....so each person is equally accountable for a portion of the total amount of emissions..(world population divided by total ghg output) or, alternatively, start at the top of the tonnage produced list, and work down..and that means China, followed by America (see I DO include Western countries), then the Eurpoean Union, India, Russia etc etc....

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way, is going to make bugger all difference in reducing GHG emissions...

Thats a poor viewpoint. Put yourself in the position of a chinese person who has just upgrade his lifestyle from owning one piece of rusty corregated iron, to a very small basic appartment with electricity to run a fridge which is all he can afford.

Some arogant Australian comes along to him and says you have to cut your co2 emissions because your country produces more co2 than mine, then drives off back to his mc-mansion in his SUV.

Chinese man would tell said Australian to f-k off, and come back to me when you are producing less co2 than me.

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freediver

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #69 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 10:10pm

Quote:

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way

No one is demanding that small countries lead the way. Rather, countries with the highest per capita emissions should naturally lead the way. The size of the country should not make any difference to this. If you double the size, you double both the problem and the resources to solve it, but the burden on individual people comes back to how much they contribute. It goes for America just as much as it goes for Australia. Your own suggestion of a global per capita basis would achieve pretty much the same thing, and would become identical once you tried to flesh it out into workable international agreements or laws.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #70 - Feb 7^th, 2013 at 10:09am

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Quote:

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way

No one is demanding that small countries lead the way. Rather, countries with the highest per capita emissions should naturally lead the way. The size of the country should not make any difference to this. If you double the size, you double both the problem and the resources to solve it, but the burden on individual people comes back to how much they contribute. It goes for America just as much as it goes for Australia. Your own suggestion of a global per capita basis would achieve pretty much the same thing, and would become identical once you tried to flesh it out into workable international agreements or laws.

Wow FD nice misqoute (OMG,I'm channelling a certain person..)
Countries with small POPULATIONS.....and yes, you are demanding that......

And if you noticed, America was second on my list..because America has the 2nd highest total tonnage..And America is NOT a 'small country', neither does it have a small population, nor does it have a higher per capita rate than Australian.....which, once again, is the whole point...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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freediver

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #71 - Feb 7^th, 2013 at 9:51pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Quote:

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way

No one is demanding that small countries lead the way. Rather, countries with the highest per capita emissions should naturally lead the way. The size of the country should not make any difference to this. If you double the size, you double both the problem and the resources to solve it, but the burden on individual people comes back to how much they contribute. It goes for America just as much as it goes for Australia. Your own suggestion of a global per capita basis would achieve pretty much the same thing, and would become identical once you tried to flesh it out into workable international agreements or laws.

Wow FD nice misqoute (OMG,I'm channelling a certain person..)
Countries with small POPULATIONS.....and yes, you are demanding that......

And if you noticed, America was second on my list..because America has the 2nd highest total tonnage..And America is NOT a 'small country', neither does it have a small population, nor does it have a higher per capita rate than Australian.....which, once again, is the whole point...

What exactly is your point, other than a few dots?

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries Reply #72 - Feb 7^th, 2013 at 10:01pm yeah what is it you are saying exactly??? Sounds pretty unreasonable from what I can glean so far.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries
Reply #73 - Feb 7^th, 2013 at 10:50pm

freediver wrote on Feb 7^th, 2013 at 9:51pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Quote:

Let's face it, demanding that countries, with small populations and not much tonnage of emissions (but high 'per captia' footprints) lead the way

No one is demanding that small countries lead the way. Rather, countries with the highest per capita emissions should naturally lead the way. The size of the country should not make any difference to this. If you double the size, you double both the problem and the resources to solve it, but the burden on individual people comes back to how much they contribute. It goes for America just as much as it goes for Australia. Your own suggestion of a global per capita basis would achieve pretty much the same thing, and would become identical once you tried to flesh it out into workable international agreements or laws.

Wow FD nice misqoute (OMG,I'm channelling a certain person..)
Countries with small POPULATIONS.....and yes, you are demanding that......

And if you noticed, America was second on my list..because America has the 2nd highest total tonnage..And America is NOT a 'small country', neither does it have a small population, nor does it have a higher per capita rate than Australian.....which, once again, is the whole point...

What exactly is your point, other than a few dots?

My point is, you (the climate change/per capita faithful) are, in fact demanding that countries with small POPULATIONS ( not small land areas), and pretty small emission amounts, do more about their emissions, than countries with larger popualtions and FAR larger emission amounts.

Blaming or trying to shame Australian people about their emissions (slightly less than 1.5% of the total), while defending and placating China about their emissions ( slightly under 25% of the World total) is a pathetic and silly move (and possibly even somewhat racist?), the sensible thing would be (in the event that the whole Co2 thing is more than a confidence trick) would be to treat every country by the total tonnage produced as a whole. (And no, the 'splitting the country' concept is completely ridiculous, but give the source, Rabbitoh, not all that surprising).

But don't worry Freediver, I do understand where the idea comes from, and the concepts behind it, the 'White Guilt' thing was still around when I was at school so I know we're all supposed to hate ourselves for being born into white, western, non-poverty stricken families..

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Comparing our GHG emissions with foreign countries Reply #74 - Feb 7^th, 2013 at 11:01pm wasn't it Tony Abbotts idea??
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