Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:


so where is this JSF-35-Lemon ?

What is the problem now ?

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True oath, it at least had visibility from the cockpit.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am:


Now that's news, but if its true it will make the pilots feel real good to know as their plane explodes around them  and through them!

F-35 Joint Strike Fighters: Australia's biggest Defence acquisition 'unaffordable', US congressional committee hears

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/f35-joint-strike-fighters-unaffordable-us-...

Latest news today 23.4.14:



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-23/australia-to-buy-58-more-joint-strike-figh...

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Bobby. wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:45am:


This conversation has obviously been going on for a long time ................. I just thought I might make an entry with a question.

Concerning the YouTube video entitled, "RUSSIAN RADAR CAN NOW SEE F-22 AND F-35 Says top US Aircraft designer," surely you know what kind of radar can see F-22s and F-35s that the Russians have made?

Based on what I've read, it's most likely to be VHF radars, and you probably know that while VHF radars can detect stealth aircraft, they can't accurately determine their location.

VHF radars have always been able to detect fighter aircraft (even way back in the 1940s and '50s) and that's because fighters have structural features whose size are comparable to or smaller than VHF wavelengths. Objects whose size are comparable to VHF wavelengths can be lit up like mirrors through a phenomenon called half-wave resonance. Stealth fighters will never be invisible to VHF radars.

That's great if you just want to detect fighters, but it's not so useful if you want to shoot them down. VHF radars don't provide accurate targeting information. To shoot down fighters, you have to be able to not just "detect" them, but also "track" them.

On the one hand you have stealth fighters that are still detectable, and VHF radars that can detect but not track them. Each technology can be augmented (and also defeated).

VHF radars may not be able to provide accurate targeting information to surface-to-air missiles, but this information can be passed on to other radars operating in different bands (as part of an integrated air defence system) so these radars can be "cued" to search in those parts of the airspace to obtain better targeting information. Information gathered by VHF radars can also be used to decide where to send your fighters to shoot down the intruding stealth fighters (and possibly engage them within visual range).

Although the VHF radars don't provide accurate targeting information and the F-22s may prevent radars in other bands from tracking them, you may not need it. Just fire a few missiles in the direction of the F-22, continually update the F-22's approximate location, and when it gets close enough, the F-22 will be visible to the missile's sensors (whether it's radar-seeking or infrared-seeking).

There are, however, a number of ways you could defeat VHF radars and save your stealth fighters, like jamming and decoys. You could have a Growler "shadowing" the F-35 or F-22 from a safe distance. The VHF receiver could be bombarded with noise and false signals, so that it wouldn't be able to determine the precise location of the F-35/F-22. You could even jam the data link cuing missiles coming toward you. The Next Generation Jammer may make Growlers redundant, so F-35s can go in without special jamming support. You'd have stealth and jamming in the same fighter.

MALDs (Miniature Air-Launched Decoy) can make the enemy think there are more fighters in an area than there actually are and cause them to waste ammunition. They emit a fake radar and infrared signature that looks like a fighter. It's an additional countermeasure on top of chaff and flare. They wouldn't know it was a decoy until they were within visual range!!

Finally, a B-2 Spirit could be used to destroy these annoying VHF radars, due to the fact that the B-2 is actually stealthy in the VHF part of the spectrum. It's large enough to not be vulnerable to half-wave resonance in the VHF band(s). Once these VHF radars are gone, the enemy is going to have a tough time locating your stealth fighters.

fractalign wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:


Stealth fighters would be vulnerable in places where the enemy has an integrated air defence system (IADS). Without an IADS, F-35s would be difficult to find and that's precisely why their "stealth" is so useful. I think it unlikely that an invasion force would be able to shoot down these F-35s so easily. To find these F-35s, the enemy would have to infiltrate Australia on the ground. They would have to send transports over and set up SAMS systems so they can find those elusive F-35s. But before they can do that, they'd have to prevent the F-35s from bombing and sinking these transports!!!

I think the mean reason why people are so worried about the effectiveness of F-35 in air warfare is not because they would make poor defenders, but rather that they would make poor attackers. I think a lot of people are missing the context of the debate regarding F-35s. It's not a question of whether they make a good defensive weapon, but whether they make a good offensive one. It's about effective power projection, not effective defence.

Defence is not a problem. Our federal governments just don't want Australia to be a passive state. They want Australia to have influence in Asia. That won't happen if the F-35 is not an effective offensive weapon.

Various countries in Asia are developing anti-access/area denial strategies and capabilities. The question is whether the F-35 can infiltrate hostile airspaces, not whether it can defend domestic and allied ones.

fractalign wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:


The trouble with historical analogies is that they often don't fit. I think a saturation attack can be thwarted with modern surveillance and reconnaissance. If you saw an enemy fleet coming at you thousands of miles away, even if it was an aircraft carrier, you'd have time to prepare. If you see a carrier coming your way, relocate all your fighters to the nearest air base. The best defence against a saturation attack is a saturation attack of your own. The hunter becomes the hunted. Modern surveillance and reconnaissance eliminates the element of surprise, gives you time to prepare and therefore to deal with saturation attacks.

Missiles usually outnumber fighters. Fill the skies with missiles and even if you miss some of the fighters, you'll eventually eliminate them all with multiple sorties. With 72 F-35s, Australia can take on one aircraft carrier. The first step would be to disable any VHF radars the enemy might be using so they can't see the F-35s. This would probably involve use of cruise missiles or standoff weapons like the JASSM-ER. Eliminate the ships defending the carrier and then go for the carrier itself. Threat eliminated.

Not many Asian countries have aircraft carriers (apart from China), so this worst-case scenario has a very small chance of happening.

fractalign wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:


The countries most likely to attempt an air invasion and with the capability to do so are China and Indonesia, but like I said, without an IADS, they would have a tough time finding those F-35s!!