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Islam stifles basic science (Read 53531 times)

Yadda

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #150 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:07pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 1:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:40am:

Same with most of Isaac Newton’s work, FD. Just more accurate measurements of concepts already understood.

You can say this for almost the entire canon of science.

No you can't. This is a common misconception about the nature of scientific revolution. For example, because of the way it is taught, many people think that relativity is just a more accurate version of newtonian mechanics. Or slightly different equations that only matter at high speed. It is not. It discards the old concepts of mass, space, time etc and replaces them with new ones. Kuhn covers this concept in great detail in his book on the nature of scientific revolution.

For a more relevant example, a more accurate measure of a year or the circumference of the earth is not the same thing as going from an earth centric to a heliocentric model of the planets. One is a complete rejection of the existing paradigm. The other pushes the envelope slightly further on the existing paradigm. Most, if not all the scientists on the top 100 list are credited with creating completely new paradigms of thought that challenged the most basic concepts about the universe.

True. Do you think the introduction of algebra constituted a paradigm shift?

algebra which was sourced, from Indian minds.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95295 Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #151 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:33pm I believe the concept of zero was sourced from.Hindu minds, Y. Algebra, however, is commonly sourced as a Moslem invention. Do you have any info that disputes this? Personally, I wouldn’t know.
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freediver

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #152 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:41pm

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True. Do you think the introduction of algebra constituted a paradigm shift?

Not a scientific one. By itself, it tells us nothing about the nature of the universe.

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My argument was never to prove that no islamic scientists weren't mad (or whatever)

We have been over this. Are you deliberately misrepresenting everything? He feigned madness.

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Mr Gibberish - notwithstanding his whacky antics

Deliberately trying to prevent all of your life's work from being understood goes a bit beyond wacky antics. Even today we are still not sure what all his writing are about.

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So at best he is a poor example to use to demonstrate islam's apparent tendency to "stifle" science.

But he was not introduced as an example to demonstrate that. He was one of your examples.

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You even acknowledge that he is not typical - yet inexplicably appeart to maintain that he can still be used to demonstrate that he is a good example to use. Go figure

Earth to Gandalf: he is your example.

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no it didn't help - because thats exactly what you did. There were 18 scientists to dwell on in that list, yet all you wanted to talk about was Mr Gibberish and Al Haytham.

These are the first examples on two different lists you provided. Go back and check for yourself. I did not pick and choose the evidence. You refused to single out any particular great Muslim scientist. Given that they are all fairly obscure, I simply picked the first on the list. I really is that simple Gandalf.

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I'm assuming you refuse to talk about the other 16

Earth to gandalf: pick any one you want. Pick who you think is the best example. i am demonstrating that I am willing to talk about any of them. You appear to think I must talk about all 16 at once.

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uh yeah - a real cracker of an example which you agree was a rare case.

Not necessarily. Your lists could be full of examples that back up my case.

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What do you think makes more sense FD - just from my list of scientists - is it logical to conclude that islam stifles science based on the fact that of the 18 in the list, 1 apparently tried to hide his findings from the world and 1 was put under house arrest?

My conclusion is that 2 out of 2 that I have looked at back up my case not yours, and this is why you are so afraid to nominate who you think is the best example of a Muslim scientist.

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What is islam if not a collection of muslims?

Duh. A religion? An political ideology? A set of statutes?

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LOL - are you actually being serious? Promoting greed is exactly what capitalists go around doing. "Greed is good" was the famous line by Gordon Gecko. And that is certainly not a mere shocking line from fiction - it is gospel for any die-in-the-wool capitalist. In fact its an ideology that is built into the system. Capitalists are un-apologetically shameless about this. It makes me sick actually. Have you ever talked to a capitalist? This is exactly their philosophy - so bad example (again).

I see you completely missed the point Gandalf. I have never seen a capitalist promote the idea that greed in itself is good, and that one liner came along centuries after capitalism became a movement. I am familiar with the term, but have only ever seen it used for it's shock value or as a gambit. In any case, my main point was to explain to you why the unintended consequences of an ideology are not the same thing as the deliberate actions of it's followers. Perhaps a better analogy would be that communists don't actively promote living in squalor. Do I need to explain this any further, or do you get it now?

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I did better than that - I gave you three. Hilarious that you keep missing this.

Earth to Gandalf: I responded at the time. It is only a few posts up. Read it again if you are still confused. 3 is not better. It is worse. Think about it. You are afraid to nominate who you think is the greatest Muslim scientist. Is that because it is Mr Gibberish?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #153 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:44pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:33pm:

I believe the concept of zero was sourced from.Hindu minds, Y.

Algebra, however, is commonly sourced as a Moslem invention. Do you have any info that disputes this?

Arabs have always made many, great, self aggrandising, claims.

Google;
the algebra of india

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Give Indians proper credit for Algebra
During his speech on June 4 in Cairo, Egypt, President Barack Obama gave credit to Muslims for invention of many things, including algebra. I would like to bring out the facts about the history of Algebra.

http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/give-indians-proper-credit-for-alg...

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How Arabs "invented" Algebra?
Arabs assure the world that they gave to it the great scientists and poets who invented practically all, since paper and ”Arabic” numerals to algebra and coca- cola. I used to take these stories for granted because my teachers taught me so, but then I decided to check if it´s true. This is what I found.
The Paper: It was a Chinese invention of the first century A.D. and it reached the Middle East via the Battle of Talas (near Tashkent) in 751, when some Chinese paper makers were captured by the Arabs.

The Mathematics: In the late eighth century, an Indian merchant brought to Baghdad two seminal mathematical works. One was the Brahmasphuta Siddhanta, known to Arabs as the Sindhind, the work of the great seventh-century Indian mathematician Brahmagupta. This contained early ideas about al-jabr, to give algebra its Arabic name. It was this work that Muhammad ibn-Musa al-Khwarizmi in the ninth century was to expand on so successfully. Khwarizmi became known as "the father of algebra" and gave his name to algorithms.

The same Indian merchant also brought a manuscript that introduced for the first time outside India the nine Hindu numerals we use to this day and are now called Arabic numerals. (Before that, numbers were written out as words or notated with letters of the alphabet.) This document also contained the first mention of the 0, which the Arabs called zephirum, from which our words zero and cipher are derived.
Of course, Muslim-born scientists did some improvement or improvisation to that ancient science they got from Greeks, Indians and Chinese. In modern time, Japanese are known to be the practitioners of that policy; they built their success on copying and improving the inventions made long before them. The Japanese cars are considered to be among the best in the world, but nobody says the car is the Japanese invention, right?
And another `roblem. Arabs say these scientitsts were all Muslims, and the world, accustomed to associate Muslims with Arabs, automatically think they were Arabs. But it´,s again, a lie. Al-Khwarizmi was not Arab, he was from Uzbekistan; Al-Razi was Persian, from Tehran; Al-Ghazzali – a Persian, too, (Al-Tabari was from Tabristan; Al-Farabi was from Turkistan; Al-Biruni was an Uzbek from Khwarizm; Ibn Sina was from Bukhara, Central Asia); Ibn Rushd was from Cordoba, Spain)...
And where are those “Great Arab Muslim scientists “ whose inventions made the revolution in the world?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110125114906AAE4mGc

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #154 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 9:06pm freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:41pm: These are the first examples on two different lists you provided. FD can we just one thing clear - I provided one list only okay? Go back and check.
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Karnal

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #155 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 9:11pm

Good point, Y. It sounds like algebra was a multicultural invention.

"Zephirum" might be Arabic, but I’ll bet it comes from "sephiroth", the ancient Greek for sphere.

Turks introduced the Greek classics to the West to facilitate the Renaissance. Arabs and Persians invented algebra, using Hindu ideas and thinkers.

Amerika invented the atom bomb using German scientists.

And now, the great scientists of Pakistan have made a bomb. Clever, no?

« Last Edit: Mar 27^th, 2013 at 9:25pm by Karnal »

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95295 Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #156 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 9:14pm FD, science must speak strictly to the nature of the universe, ja? Naturalicht.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #157 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 9:49pm

voted "best answer" on Yadda's yahoo question:

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The Book of Summary Concerning Calculating by Transposition and Reduction
That mouthful of a title belongs to the book that helped to develop modern algebra. Written by Muslim mathematician Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī, the book, and the al-jabr that arose from it, offered ways to solve mathematical problems using algebraic systems. The word "algebra" derives from the "al-jabr" in the book's Arabic title, which means "reunion." While other mathematicians have contributed to the evolution of algebra, al-Khwarizmi is generally considered the father of algebra for his contributions to the field in 820 AD.

al-Khwarizmi managed to come up with a unified system for generalized problem solving, unlike Diophantus's problem-specific solutions. Some of al-Khwarizmi's algebraic methodology is still used today, and he is rightly credited with bringing great developments to the field.

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:41pm:

My conclusion is that 2 out of 2 that I have looked at back up my case not yours

again, what case exactly? That all muslim scientists were mad (oh sorry - feigned madness), or were arrested? I already told you in my last post that at least 15 of the 18 scientists in that list had no known similar experiences. What does that say about my case do you think?

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:41pm:

Duh. A religion? An political ideology? A set of statutes?

You don't seem to understand. When you say a religion "stifles" something, unless there is some mystic force in the wind causing scientists to drop their pens or possessing caliph's bodies and forcing them to arrest scientists - we must necessarily be talking about human beings - ie "certain muslims" going out and doing the stifling - as agents of the religion. Like the caliph arresting Al Haytham that you seemed so interested in before.

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 8:41pm:

Perhaps a better analogy would be that communists don't actively promote living in squalor

Yes and no. The naive ideologue foot-soldiers of communism undoubtedly dream of an economic utopia. However in the real world, where communism has actually been implemented, having people live in squalor has been integral to the survival of the regime. 'Actively promote' is the wrong term (in both cases), but there is no question that there was a conscious decision made in places like Soviet Russia and the eastern block amongst the ruling elite, not to implement a true communist system - which would take people out of squalor. Thus the existence of people in squalor can in no way be simply passed off as an unintended consequence. The same principle applies to capitalism in relation to greed. If you any notion of the way wall street works, the ingrained culture that exists in capitalist America - going right into the political arena - clearly the idea that "greed is good" is anything but an unintended consequence of the system.

Anyway, your attempt at applying this logic to islam fell down as soon as you started banging on about the arresting caliph - who you specifically pointed out as being the very embodiment of islam. Your entire case for islam stifling science (a total of 2 obscure anecdotes by my count) - consists of muslims consciously acting in ways that apparently were specifically designed to stifle science. There were no "unintended consequences". Or if your talking about the non-performance of the islamic learning centres, that doesn't even count as an argument - since you haven't even begun to explain the processes of how islam can set out to achieve something - but must necessarily - because of its inherent flaws - 'stifle' that effort. Something like how both capitalism and communism fail because of certain inherent 'weaknesses' of man - ambition, tendency to exploit the weak, etc...

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #158 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 10:06pm

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FD, science must speak strictly to the nature of the universe, ja?

Karnal, that's just what science is.

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FD can we just one thing clear - I provided one list only okay? Go back and check.

You provided a second list, of three I think. The second case I looked into was the first one on that list. I have made it perfectly clear at each step that I was merely taking whoever was first on your list as an example, seeing as you were too busy making up excuses to suggest who might be the greatest Muslim scientist.

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again, what case exactly?

That islam stifles basic science.

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That all muslim scientists were mad

Gandalf, that is what we call a strawman. Honestly, it is getting a bit childish now.

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I already told you in my last post that at least 15 of the 18 scientists in that list had no known similar experiences.

Are you going to tell me which three?

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Well done Gandalf. Now for the million dollar question, must we necessarily be talking about deliberate, conscious efforts by those people, or could we perhaps also be talking about consequences that were probably never considered by Muhammed or by the Muslims who followed in his footsteps? What do you think is more likely in this case? Most of these people probably barely had any concept what science is.

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Anyway, your attempt at applying this logic to islam fell down as soon as you started banging on about the arresting caliph - who you specifically pointed out as being the very embodiment of islam.

Quote me.

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a total of 2 obscure anecdotes by my count

Earth to Gandalf: They were your examples. They topped your lists. A scientist deliberately concealing his entire life's work so that today no-one has a clue WTF he was on about half the time is hardly an obscure anecdote. It is a deliberate, lifelong mockery of the most basic precepts of scientific endeavour, from a man who may well be the 'greatest' scientist Islam can offer up to counter my argument.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #159 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 11:02pm

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

That islam stifles basic science.

hmm constructive circular discussion we're having here FD.

How exactly does islam stifle science?

- because two of the great scientists that I have listed were arrested and feigned madness - no no no, silly Gandalf - these were MY examples, so I mustn't mention them... but hang on, don't they make FDs case for islam stifling science? Wouldn't that then make then FDs examples? Its too confusing.

So I can't mention the anecdotes you use to build your case - because.... I mentioned them first... hmm ok FD - so we'll take away the only evidence *YOU* used to prove that islam stifles science - because they were my examples. Ok? And we'll just have to accept that no matter how many times you mention them to prop up your own case - they can never be your examples... even though they are...err being used as.. err.. examples in your argument. My head is spinning.

Hmmm so since I am baned from using your examples, that somehow aren't your examples, is there any other evidence we can talk about? Oh I know - see muslims built these great learning centres in an apparent effort to advance science (strange thing for a science-stifling society to do, but anyway...), but nothing happened! So there you go - proof that islam stifles science. You see its called the "unintended consequences" of this religion. Like communism seeks to create prosperity for all, it actually ends up creating poverty for most. Same principle applies to islam - apparently. But what is this principle? Hmmm come to think of it - its never been mentioned at all in 10 pages of talking about how "islam stifles basic science". Undecided

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Life_goes_on

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #160 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 11:27pm

Really? Like honestly, really?

We're using evidence from near a millenia ago as the basis of an argument against the hypothesis of the thread?

That's worse than trying to argue that the current French army is the most combat effective in the world based upon Napoleon's successes prior to the 1812 Russian campaign.

To quote from a certain Ms Jackson...

"What have you done for me lately?"

All religions stifle science.

"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #161 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 11:39pm

no, science and scientific pursuit is perfectly compatible with ALL religions.

Worshipping God and seeking to understand his great creation is one and the same. In islam, seeking knowledge and understanding is specifically mentioned as being part of worship. Science and learning is far more than merely compatible with islam - it is an obligation of muslims. There is clearly a similar principle in christianity, given the churches proud history of patronising the sciences (contrary to popular perceptions), and I would imagine its the same for most other religions.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Life_goes_on

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #162 - Mar 27^th, 2013 at 11:46pm

Quote:

Worshipping God and seeking to understand his great creation is one and the same.

Ahhh yes.... as long as that science doesn't deviate too far away from the belief that it's God's creation and whatever viewpoint that religion holds in regards to the extent of their god's control and/or influence over that creation.

i.e. Freedivers rejection of evolution.

« Last Edit: Mar 27^th, 2013 at 11:51pm by Life_goes_on »

"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

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Life_goes_on

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #163 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 12:00am

Quote:

no, science and scientific pursuit is perfectly compatible with ALL religions.

What absolute and utter twaddle.

Go try and convince Southern Baptists or Pentacostals about the validity of evolutionary theory or for that matter - research regarding it.

Scientific pursuit is fine as long as it doesn't conflict with that religion.

« Last Edit: Mar 28^th, 2013 at 12:09am by Life_goes_on »

"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

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freediver

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #164 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 12:19am

Quote:

hmm constructive circular discussion we're having here FD.

Exactly.

Step 1: Gandalf makes a strawman argument

Step 2: FD points out (again, incredibly patiently) that it is a strawman.

Step 3: See step 1.

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- because two of the great scientists that I have listed were arrested and feigned madness

Strawman

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but hang on, don't they make FDs case for islam stifling science?

Strawman

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So I can't mention the anecdotes you use to build your case

This is really quite simple Gandalf. You cannot seriously claim (as you have attempted over and over again) that they are the only evidence I have presented or that I have picked those particular examples because they were the only ones that supported my argument. Is any of this getting through?

Quote:

so we'll take away the only evidence *YOU* used to prove that islam stifles science - because they were my examples

Strawman

If you have any genuine arguments left Gandalf, let's see them.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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