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Islam stifles basic science (Read 53532 times)
Sprintcyclist
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #165 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 1:58am
 

Quote:
.........This is really quite simple Gandalf. You cannot seriously claim (as you have attempted over and over again) that they are the only evidence I have presented or that I have picked those particular examples because they were the only ones that supported my argument. Is any of this getting through?..... .


no, nothing gets through to muslims
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #166 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 7:44am
 
Life_goes_on wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:00am:
What absolute and utter twaddle.

Go try and convince Southern Baptists or Pentacostals about the validity of evolutionary theory or for that matter - research regarding it.


to be fair, creationists do at least attempt to justify their creationist beliefs scientifically. Its quite a joke, but technically its still science. Not that much different to those so-called scientists who reject climate change.

Overwhelmingly though religion has kept pace with the scientific consensus. I think its fair to say religious people mould their religion according to the changing consensus on science - not the other way around.
[/quote]

freediver wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:19am:
This is really quite simple Gandalf. You cannot seriously claim (as you have attempted over and over again) that they are the only evidence I have presented or that I have picked those particular examples because they were the only ones that supported my argument. Is any of this getting through?


I'm sorry FD, but thats literally all I see. If I have time I'll go back over the entire thread again and see if I missed anything. But as far as I remember , its basically: 2 "bad" scientists, non-performance of islamic learning centres (despite the evidence), bickering over what really happened regarding Ibn Firnas's flying attempt, and camel urine. Please tell me if I've missed anything.
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #167 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:05am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 27th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
no, science and scientific pursuit is perfectly compatible with ALL religions.

Worshipping God and seeking to understand his great creation is one and the same. In islam, seeking knowledge and understanding is specifically mentioned as being part of worship. Science and learning is far more than merely compatible with islam - it is an obligation of muslims.


If science is an obligation of muslims as you claim then why are there stuff all muslim scientists in the Islamic world in 2013?

The National acaedemy of sciences have surveyed their members and 93% of those surveyed did not believe in your imaginary god.

If science is compatible with religion why are the vast majority of scientists disbelievers in religion, does god created everything contradict biology and evolution?

Leading scientists reject god-
www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html


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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #168 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:36am
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 27th, 2013 at 8:44pm:
Karnal wrote on Mar 27th, 2013 at 8:33pm:
I believe the concept of zero was sourced from.Hindu minds, Y.

Algebra, however, is commonly sourced as a Moslem invention. Do you have any info that disputes this?





Arabs have always made many, great, self aggrandising, claims.


Google;
the algebra of india





Quote:
Give Indians proper credit for Algebra
During his speech on June 4 in Cairo, Egypt, President Barack Obama gave credit to Muslims for invention of many things, including algebra. I would like to bring out  the facts about the history of Algebra.

http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/give-indians-proper-credit-for-alg...

Quote:
How Arabs "invented" Algebra?
Arabs assure the world that they gave to it the great scientists and poets who invented practically all, since paper and ”Arabic” numerals to algebra and coca- cola. I used to take these stories for granted because my teachers taught me so, but then I decided to check if it´s true. This is what I found.
The Paper: It was a Chinese invention of the first century A.D. and it reached the Middle East via the Battle of Talas (near Tashkent) in 751, when some Chinese paper makers were captured by the Arabs.

The Mathematics: In the late eighth century, an Indian merchant brought to Baghdad two seminal mathematical works. One was the Brahmasphuta Siddhanta, known to Arabs as the Sindhind, the work of the great seventh-century Indian mathematician Brahmagupta. This contained early ideas about al-jabr, to give algebra its Arabic name. It was this work that Muhammad ibn-Musa al-Khwarizmi in the ninth century was to expand on so successfully. Khwarizmi became known as "the father of algebra" and gave his name to algorithms.

The same Indian merchant also brought a manuscript that introduced for the first time outside India the nine Hindu numerals we use to this day and are now called Arabic numerals. (Before that, numbers were written out as words or notated with letters of the alphabet.) This document also contained the first mention of the 0, which the Arabs called zephirum, from which our words zero and cipher are derived.
Of course, Muslim-born scientists did some improvement or improvisation to that ancient science they got from Greeks, Indians and Chinese. In modern time, Japanese are known to be the practitioners of that policy; they built their success on copying and improving the inventions made long before them. The Japanese cars are considered to be among the best in the world, but nobody says the car is the Japanese invention, right?
And another `roblem. Arabs say these scientitsts were all Muslims, and the world, accustomed to associate Muslims with Arabs, automatically think they were Arabs. But it´,s again, a lie. Al-Khwarizmi was not Arab, he was from Uzbekistan; Al-Razi was Persian, from Tehran; Al-Ghazzali – a Persian, too, (Al-Tabari was from Tabristan; Al-Farabi was from Turkistan; Al-Biruni was an Uzbek from Khwarizm; Ibn Sina was from Bukhara, Central Asia); Ibn Rushd was from Cordoba, Spain)...
And where are those “Great Arab Muslim scientists “ whose inventions made the revolution in the world?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110125114906AAE4mGc





How can algebra be a muslim invention when people were doing algebra hundreds of years before Mohammad invented Islam?

If we look at the timeline of algebra we can see muslims are bullshit artists with the claim they invented it.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_algebra

Quote:
Diophantus of Alexandria sometimes called the father of Algebra was a greek mathematician, he was doing algebra over 400 years before Mohammad invented Islam.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus




The Islamic golden age came from conquered cultures, the arabs conquered Persia where the majority of the atheist scientists are from, the arabs conquered India and stole their mathematics.
The cultures that were conquered had their works stolen and passed off as islamic work.
When there was no more gold to conquer the islamic golden age came to a shuddering halt.
Islam originated in Saudi Arabia so where are the arab muslim scientists, you would have more luck trying to find a turd under a rocking horse.
Why are all the so called golden age scientists something other than arab?

Mohammad was a thief a highway robber and a murderer who stole from the trade caravans that passed between Syria and Arabia to finance the ummah when he went to Medina.
Why does allah need 20% of all war booty, Mohammad was a fraud.
www.quran.com/8/41


Muslims speak fluent bullshit.


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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #169 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:45am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 26th, 2013 at 5:48am:
We're not talking about now - science is stifled now in the islamic world, that was never disputed.


So Islam does stifle science?
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #170 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:52am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 27th, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Worshipping God and seeking to understand his great creation is one and the same. In islam, seeking knowledge and understanding is specifically mentioned as being part of worship. Science and learning is far more than merely compatible with islam - it is an obligation of muslims. There is clearly a similar principle in christianity, given the churches proud history of patronising the sciences (contrary to popular perceptions), and I would imagine its the same for most other religions.







Gandalf,

You and i are, fundamentally, different people.

You claim that you choose to believe that a philosophy [ISLAM] which cultivates a mind like this [below], is capable of accepting new concepts and is capable of accepting new 'imaginings', of the type that are always exposed to our consciousness, by scientific enquiry.


IMAGE...
...
Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.
"Ignore the placards. We are moslems!!! And we believe in pluralism, scientific enquiry, and reason!"
i
FROM THE KORAN....

"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.....
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
"
Koran 5.101, 102



Gandalf,

You claim that you choose to believe that a philosophy which cultivates a mind like this [above], is capable of accepting new concepts and is capable of accepting new 'imaginings', of the type that are always exposed to our consciousness, by scientific enquiry.







FROM THE KORAN....

" "And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say: "True guidance is the Guidance of Allah:....."   "
Koran 3.73



Gandalf,

You claim that you choose to believe that a philosophy which cultivates a mind like this [above], is capable of accepting new concepts and is capable of accepting new 'imaginings', of the type that are always exposed to our consciousness, by scientific enquiry.





Gandalf,

You and i are, fundamentally, different people.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #171 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:56am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 27th, 2013 at 9:49pm:

voted "best answer" on Yadda's yahoo question:

Quote:
The Book of Summary Concerning Calculating by Transposition and Reduction
That mouthful of a title belongs to the book that helped to develop modern algebra. Written by Muslim mathematician Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī, the book, and the al-jabr that arose from it, offered ways to solve mathematical problems using algebraic systems. The word "algebra" derives from the "al-jabr" in the book's Arabic title, which means "reunion." While other mathematicians have contributed to the evolution of algebra, al-Khwarizmi is generally considered the father of algebra for his contributions to the field in 820 AD.

al-Khwarizmi managed to come up with a unified system for generalized problem solving, unlike Diophantus's problem-specific solutions. Some of al-Khwarizmi's algebraic methodology is still used today, and he is rightly credited with bringing great developments to the field.








Gandalf,

You choose to believe such an account.




Gandalf,

You and i are, fundamentally, different people.


I choose to believe that;
A mind that chooses to associate itself with a philosophy [ISLAM], which allows [i.e. makes it lawful for] that mind to steal and subsume the property and lives of all others, that are outside of its own camp,
........that mind, can without any conscience whatsoever, steal the ideas and inventions of others, and claim that they [moslems] developed such devices and ideas themselves.



What i CANNOT believe, is that any claims of authorship, by moslems, [without verifiable proof] are likely to be truthful claims.





[Yadda said;
'ISLAM makes it lawful for moslems to steal and subsume the property and lives of all others....']

"Or have they gods that can guard them from Us? They have no power to aid themselves, nor can they be defended from Us.
...See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Koran 21:43-44


"And He made you [moslems] heirs to their [non-moslem] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."
Koran 33:27


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #172 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:05pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 25th, 2013 at 8:31pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 25th, 2013 at 2:38pm:

Grin my God you are a bafoon Baron - no offence - you really just need to think your arguments through a little better. Nowhere did I claim he was a muslim. He was however a great thinker living in the islamic world. The fact that there were (apparently) atheists and apostates walking around in the heart of the muslim world freely propagating their blasphemous ideas - and having them challenged and debated in a civilized manner only supports my argument - not yours. Silly billy  Tongue



Yes baron,

Why can't you accept it when gandalf tells us that non-moslems [or moslems] who are atheists and apostates could/can walk around in the heart of the moslem world freely propagating their blasphemous ideas


IMAGE...
http://images.smh.com.au/2012/09/15/3637564/art-protest3-620x349.jpg



Razi was an atheist does it sound like he would openly criticise islam as Gandalf claims ?
Quote:
If the people of this religion are asked about the proof and soundness of their religion they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question.
They forbid rational speculation and strive to kill their adversaries..This is why the truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Zakariya_al-Razi


Being critical of Islam is considered the same as waging war against Islam by muslims.
How is it possible to have a war with Mohammads imaginary friend in the sky called allah?
If Allah needs muslims to do his dirty work then allah is not omnipotent.
www.quran.com/5/33


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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #173 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:08pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:52am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 27th, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Worshipping God and seeking to understand his great creation is one and the same. In islam, seeking knowledge and understanding is specifically mentioned as being part of worship. Science and learning is far more than merely compatible with islam - it is an obligation of muslims. There is clearly a similar principle in christianity, given the churches proud history of patronising the sciences (contrary to popular perceptions), and I would imagine its the same for most other religions.







Gandalf,

You and i are, fundamentally, different people.


There's your mistake right there, Y. In a nutshell.

Gud works in mysterious ways, no?
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #174 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:16pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:56am:

[Yadda said;
'ISLAM makes it lawful for moslems to steal and subsume the property and lives of all others....']

"Or have they gods that can guard them from Us? They have no power to aid themselves, nor can they be defended from Us.
...See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Koran 21:43-44


"And He made you [moslems] heirs to their [non-moslem] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."
Koran 33:27






Here the words of Mohammed, speaking to Arabian Jews,
....about the consequence for the Jewish rejection of ISLAM...

"You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you from,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.085.077
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.053.392





ISLAMIC DOCTRINE - regarding disbelievers;


There is no place, anywhere on earth for non-moslems, except for non-moslems to live as the serfs and slaves of their moslem overlords.

And that, is the moslem paradise, the ISLAMIC 'peace', which all moslems are working towards - through their Jihad [i.e. the spiritual struggle].


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "

Koran 9.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #175 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:22pm
 
Karnal wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:08pm:

There's your mistake right there, Y. In a nutshell.

Gud works in mysterious ways, no?







Yadda said.....
Quote:

Don't believe a single word 'uttered' by this person, folks.

Over the period of his sojourn, here on OzPol, Karnal has revealed himself to be a person who has no sincere opinions of his own which he is willing to reveal in this public forum.





Why would that be ?




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #176 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:39pm
 
Quote:
I'm sorry FD, but thats literally all I see.


That's because that is what we are still discussing. But you only brought up those examples about halfway through the debate. There are plenty of other points that were either not discussed much or were discussed at length prior to that.

Also, the arguments you attribute to me are not what I am actually saying. What you actually see is me explaining this to you over and over again. What you think you see is the opposite.

Quote:
If I have time I'll go back over the entire thread again and see if I missed anything. But as far as I remember , its basically: 2 "bad" scientists, non-performance of islamic learning centres (despite the evidence), bickering over what really happened regarding Ibn Firnas's flying attempt, and camel urine. Please tell me if I've missed anything.


That's a bit of an improvement on claiming the two bad examples were mine and were the only evidence I have presented. The two main issues I started with were the absence of any Muslims on the top 100 list (and you have to admit that people like Mr Gibberish are midgets in comparison), and the obvious and consistent fabrications by Muslims that overstate or simply fabricate past contributions by Muslims. The flying machine story is a good example of this. It demonstrated that you have fallen victim to the absurd propaganda machine, you are yet to even settle on what kind of flying machine he invented, and are yet to concede that the "attaching wings to your arms" variety is not even possible.

Further, the two bad examples highlight many mechanisms through which Islam stifles science, plus there are several more obvious ones - such as the distractions posed by Islam and it's control over the minutia of daily life (eg fasting, praying, slaughtering infidels, the focus on sex and acquiring women and slaves etc).

But by far the strongest support for my argument is your unwillingness to name one scientist who you think should be on the top 100 list, or who you think was the greatest Islamic scientist. The closest you have come is a list of three. One of these is one of the two 'bad examples' already discussed. As far as I can tell the other two did not contribute anything fundamental to our understanding of the nature of the universe. The Muslim scientists you are offering up in response to the top 100 list are not even in the same league.

You have also conceded that Islam has been stifling science for some time, but are yet to explain why the past was any different, even though you keep saying you will. Are you having trouble figuring out how to spin it?

I would also like to know which 3 of the list of 18 you felt were similar to being put under house arrest, or whatever it was you were judging them on. At least you have started checking whether your evidence supports your case before presenting it.
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #177 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 3:40pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:36am:
How can algebra be a muslim invention when people were doing algebra hundreds of years before Mohammad invented Islam?


I posted a response to the algebra claim. As always there are two sides to every story.

freediver wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:39pm:
I would also like to know which 3 of the list of 18 you felt were similar to being put under house arrest, or whatever it was you were judging them on. At least you have started checking whether your evidence supports your case before presenting it.


This about sums everything thats wrong about your attitude FD. You have a list of famous muslim scientists, and you are not in the least bit interested in learning about the actual work that they did or how they contributed to the advancement of knowledge (of which there is much discussion that I have pointed out, but you refuse to mention). When pushed you made some idiotic claim about the majority of them being translators - which turns out to be simply false. Also some nonsense about mathematical advances having nothing to do with scientific advancement

Yet mention that 2 or 3 of them may have been at the wrong end of some poor treatment from the authorities, and you are suddenly all interested, and thats all you want to talk about. We have here revealed, you claim, "many mechanisms" by which islam stifles science. Picture me with a frustrated look on my face while you attempt to make the case that 3/18 scientists that are ill-treated show the "many mechanisms" in place for how islam stifles science. Now picture me attempting to make the argument that 15/18 scientists who were not ill treated or stifled in any way shows the "many mechanisms" in place for how islam promotes science.

freediver wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:39pm:
But by far the strongest support for my argument is your unwillingness to name one scientist who you think should be on the top 100 list


strongest support eh  Cheesy

says a lot about the strength of your argument then FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #178 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 4:14pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 3:40pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:36am:
How can algebra be a muslim invention when people were doing algebra hundreds of years before Mohammad invented Islam?


I posted a response to the algebra claim. As always there are two sides to every story.

.


Can you link your response to the algebra claim i dont recall seeing it.

I usually find there are 3 sides to every story in this case we have-

1.A cock and bull story from muslims speaking fluent bullshit claiming they invented algebra.

2.Historians showing Greeks and Indians doing algebra before Mohammad went to a cave for a wank and ended up smacking a pig then inflicted a form of STD on society that he invented called Islam.

3.The truth which will be independant to #1 and #2.

What does the timeline of algebra say?
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_algebra

Is this guy sometimes called the father of algebra?
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus


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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #179 - Mar 28th, 2013 at 5:31pm
 
I would have thought the guy they named algebra after would sometimes be called the father of algebra too, Baron.

Read Yadda’s post above.

Believe everything Y says, friends. He is a very Gudly fellow.
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