Australian Politics Forum - Islam stifles basic science

Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #60 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:10am

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 8:53am:

Ibn Firnas's invention may not have been a "hang glider" as we know it - but it was a glider.

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:02pm:

Are you suggesting Islam has contributed something more significant?

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algebra, the numerals we use today, hospitals, the scientific method, our understanding of human anatomy etc etc... all these things have been mentioned about 1000 times before.

What was the second flight from muslims gandalf, is there a second flight recorded or did they give up after the failure of the first one?

There were people doing algebra before Mo invented Islam like this guiy whose works were translated into arabic and passed off as islamic.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #61 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:19am The funny thing is, Gandalf's list of great Islamic scientists is dominated by translators. The rest are people who claimed credit for the work of others.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95296 Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #62 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:23am Yes, FD. Islam: the Microsoft of great inventors.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #63 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:25am

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

That's odd. I don't think anyone actually knows what Eilmer's innovation was either. It certainly does not appear to involve gluing vulture feathers to your arm.

wrong and wrong. We do know what it was (if we are going to believe the account of William of Malmesbury - which I don't see anyone disputing) - and it absolutely does appear to be the same mechanism - which according to the secondary sources for both men - was attaching wings to the arms and feet.

But why would we accept one story based on its secondary source, but not the other? Even more ridiculous - why would we accept one story based on a single secondary source, and reject another that is based on multiple secondary sources, plus a primary source? The answer is we don't - that is except you.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

You mean the one line reference to bird feathers and a phoenix?

The very one. Combined with the corroboration of multiple secondary sources - some of which were near contemporaneous - we get a very believable story. As I said - so much of historical "fact" comes from secondary sources written many years, decades, even centuries after the event - often just a single source (such as Eilmer's flight which no one disputes). Its quite a luxury to get, in Firnas's case, both primary and multiple secondary sources corroborating the same story.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

You don't see a huge Christian propaganda machine making up stories about him inventing the hang glider and being a great Christian thinker either

I don't see a huge islamic propaganda machine making up stories about Firnas either. The "hang glider" error came from me, and me alone. Not that thats the great "gotcha" you are making it out to be though - fact is it was a glider (by all accounts), and to all intents and purposes was basically the forerunner to the hang glider. But as for the "propaganda" muslims will correctly proclaim Ibn Firnas's flight story as the first documented evidence of a successful flight.

Muslims will also hail Ibn Firnas as a great thinker completely apart from the flight story. Something that you conveniently keep overlooking - ie mocking him for being in the islamic scientist list, as if its for his feats of flying, which it is not. His groundbreaking achievements in astronomy and glassworks (amongst others) have already been mentioned.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

You don't see a huge Christian propaganda machine making up stories about him inventing the hang glider and being a great Christian thinker either, or putting him top of a list called "Christianity and science, setting the record straight". He doesn;t even make the top 100 list, nor does he deserve to.

Perfect case in point. Eilmer is not in any "great scientist" list because he didn't do anything scientific apart from his flight attempt. Ibn Firnas did. He is in "great scientist" lists not because of his flight attempt, but because of all his groundbreaking work in physics and astronomy amongst others

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

So the guy who tops both your lists is a guy whose actual contributions are questioned by historians

He "tops" the list, because it is in chronological order, not order of importance.

And you are selective. The historians I quoted in my last post aren't questioning his contributions.

Also, did you notice the source for the authenticity of his contributions claim? Its Ehsan Masood, who is a very prominent science writer, and who is most famous for his widely proclaimed book "Science and Islam: A History" - in which he presents a very convincing case for the huge contribution of islamic science.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

can you please suggest who you think is the greatest Muslim scientist of all time?

ok - shall I go with a physicist?, astronomer? Chemist? Psychologist? And then you can explain to me how "greatest" in that field trumps the "greatest" in any of the other fields.

Thats how idiotic your idea of "who's the 'greatest' scientist" is. It is meaningless, because as I keep trying to say, great scientists in different fields are incomparable, and ultimately such a ranking will be purely subjective. How would you, for example, compare Einstein against Freud, or Newton against Darwin? You can't. The best you can do is say they were all great, and should be mentioned as such. As for islamic science, there are many obvious contenders to include amongst "the greatest": al Haytham (as previously mentioned) who pioneered the scientific method, al Battani, who first calculated the length of the solar year, and al-Khwarizmi who first developed algebra - are just three that spring to mind.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #64 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:36am

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

Hayyan is your own example. Like I said, it is your lack of good examples that really proves my point.

The other 16 in that list are bad examples? Please humour me FD and try and smear them as well.

But of course "contributions" is not just about the individuals, its the institution, and the environment fostered that facilitated learning - such as in Baghdad and Corboda - cities that had no equal in the non-muslim world during their time. Not to mention the fact, as explained to Baron previously, that great thinkers who questioned and criticised core tenets of islam (blasphemy in anyone's language) were not only tolerated, but thrived. This reality alone is enough to make a complete mockery of your "islam stifles science" theme - a claim that you still haven't come close to clearly defining - let alone substantiating.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:19am:

The funny thing is, Gandalf's list of great Islamic scientists is dominated by translators. The rest are people who claimed credit for the work of others.

In order to build on the pioneering work of the ancient Greeks and others, you first need to translate those works. Those great scientists were not merely translators, they translated, analysed and then improved upon the Greek works. For example, al Haytham (who as we know developed the scientific method), analysed Aristotle's pioneering work on induction, and criticised him for not developing it further - ultimately leading to his development of the scientific method.

But I'd be interested to know FD, how do we get things like reading lenses, clocks, much of modern day medicine, dedicated hospitals, accurate calanders etc etc simply by translating old Greek texts?

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freediver

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #65 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm

Quote:

wrong and wrong. We do know what it was (if we are going to believe the account of William of Malmesbury - which I don't see anyone disputing) - and it absolutely does appear to be the same mechanism - which according to the secondary sources for both men - was attaching wings to the arms and feet.

Are you aware of anyone, ever, being able to fly with this method?

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But why would we accept one story based on its secondary source, but not the other?

I accept them for what they are. It was you who attempted to claim that Firnas invented a hang glider.

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Its quite a luxury to get, in Firnas's case, both primary and multiple secondary sources corroborating the same story.

Except that the primary source doesn't actually say anything. You harp on about primary and secondary sources, but completely ignore the elephant in the room. The only thing the 'primary' source proves is that the guy existed.

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I don't see a huge islamic propaganda machine making up stories about Firnas either. The "hang glider" error came from me, and me alone.

So you made the same error that swamps the google results when you google 'Firnas hang Glider'?

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Not that thats the great "gotcha" you are making it out to be though - fact is it was a glider (by all accounts)

Except of course the 'primary source' which only talks about vulture feathers and phoenixs.

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and to all intents and purposes was basically the forerunner to the hang glider

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But as for the "propaganda" muslims will correctly proclaim Ibn Firnas's flight story as the first documented evidence of a successful flight.

So because it is written, it must be true?

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He "tops" the list, because it is in chronological order, not order of importance.

Can you suggest a Muslim scientist who you think deserves to be on the top 100 list?

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And you are selective. The historians I quoted in my last post aren't questioning his contributions.

So because someone else wrote it, it must be true?

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ok - shall I go with a physicist?, astronomer? Chemist? Psychologist? And then you can explain to me how "greatest" in that field trumps the "greatest" in any of the other fields.

I would go with a physicist or chemist.

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Thats how idiotic your idea of "who's the 'greatest' scientist" is. It is meaningless, because as I keep trying to say, great scientists in different fields are incomparable

It is easy to compare them. That is why Einstein and Newton for example are regarded as some of the greatest scientists in History, whereas we have never even heard of these Muslim scientists and would not have been talking about them if not for Muslims propping up midgets.

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and ultimately such a ranking will be purely subjective

I am not asking you for a quantitative measure.

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How would you, for example, compare Einstein against Freud, or Newton against Darwin? You can't.

They were all great scientists. I would put Einstein first. This is of course subjective. If you come up with who you think is the greatest Muslim scientist of all time, I will do another comparison for you.

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The best you can do is say they were all great, and should be mentioned as such

Why are you afraid to suggest who you think is the greatest Muslim scientist of all time? These scientists on the list you provide are rpetty much unkown, and deservedly so.

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As for islamic science, there are many obvious contenders to include amongst "the greatest": al Haytham (as previously mentioned)

A man who was kept under house arrest by the Caliph after he was summoned to complete a hairbrained scheme, and who then felt the need to pretend to be insane to protect himself from Muslims? Do you really think this is a good counterargument against Islam stifling basic science?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #66 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:36am:

Not to mention the fact, as explained to Baron previously, that great thinkers who questioned and criticised core tenets of islam (blasphemy in anyone's language) were not only tolerated, but thrived.

In order to build on the pioneering work of the ancient Greeks and others, you first need to translate those works. Those great scientists were not merely translators, they translated, analysed and then improved upon the Greek works. For example, al Haytham (who as we know developed the scientific method), analysed Aristotle's pioneering work on induction, and criticised him for not developing it further - ultimately leading to his development of the scientific method.

I did state muslims have to be considered as being of sound mind before they get their heads chopped off for apostasy, i even provided an Islamic source to back this up.

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If a muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy, ie he is of sound mind and an adult- then his blood may be shed with impunity.
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20327/apostate

Glad you mentioned al Haytham.

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Fearing for his life he feigned madness and was placed under house arrest, during and after which he devoted himself to his scientific work.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen

Why would anyone feign madness if they feared for their life, please enlighten us on that one Gandalf.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #67 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:52pm

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Why would anyone feign madness if they feared for their life, please enlighten us on that one Gandalf.

what Baron is talking about:

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After being ordered by Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, the sixth ruler of the Fatimid caliphate, to carry out this operation, he quickly perceived the impossibility of what he was attempting to do, and retired from engineering. Fearing for his life, he feigned madness

Now Baron, why would you mention the "fearing for his life" part in the context of apostasy - without mentioning the fact that his fear for his life had nothing to do with apostasy?

Could it be that you were leading us down the garden path - thinking that you could trick us into thinking that My Al Haytham's ordeal was all to do with him being critical of islam?

Good lord, the lengths you people go to...

Its just really... sad

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #68 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:08pm

Gandalf, can you explain why this man, who you appear to think was at least the greatest scientist of his time, would fear for his life after not being able to perform the impossible at the request of the Muslim ruler? Can you do this without supporting the argument that Islam stifles basic science? Also, why would he feign madness?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #69 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:30pm

1. I never said I believed he is the greatest - how many times do I have to tell you, "great" scientists can't be ranked?

2. use your brain for once, and look at the entire quote:

Quote:

After being ordered by Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, the sixth ruler of the Fatimid caliphate, to carry out this operation, he quickly perceived the impossibility of what he was attempting to do, and retired from engineering. Fearing for his life, he feigned madness[1][16] and was placed under house arrest, during and after which he devoted himself to his scientific work until his death.[13] He is known as the "Father of modern optics and Scientific methodology"[17][18] and could be regarded as the first theoretical physicist.[18]

the idea that this episode hampered his scientific career is ridiculous - since this is what kicked off his career in the fields we know him for - optics and scientific methodology.

Finally, what the frying truck has this got anything to do with islam stifling science?? An over eager engineer promises something to the caliph that he cannot deliver. He dissapointed a civic minded caliph - not insulted the prophet or renounced his religion - as Baron tried to convince us. Its like saying something stupid like an engineer who couldn't build a bridge for King John of England - after promising that he could - then rightly fears for his life - and that is a perfect example of how christianity stifles science.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #70 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:33pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

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Why would anyone feign madness if they feared for their life, please enlighten us on that one Gandalf.

what Baron is talking about:

Quote:

After being ordered by Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, the sixth ruler of the Fatimid caliphate, to carry out this operation, he quickly perceived the impossibility of what he was attempting to do, and retired from engineering. Fearing for his life, he feigned madness

Now Baron, why would you mention the "fearing for his life" part in the context of apostasy - without mentioning the fact that his fear for his life had nothing to do with apostasy?

Could it be that you were leading us down the garden path - thinking that you could trick us into thinking that My Al Haytham's ordeal was all to do with him being critical of islam?

Good lord, the lengths you people go to...

Its just really... sad

Are you suggesting he feared for his life because he realised the impossibility of an engineering task and retired from engineering?
Are you saying the 6th ruler of the fatimad caliphate was intolerant of engineers who realised they were wrong?

How does pretending to be crazy-mad-a nutjob help you if you are fearing for your life unless you were a muslim?

Why did he have to feign madness to continue his scientific work?

It is a fact one of the great scientists from the Islamic part of the world had to pretend to be mad in order to continue his scientific studies,It is also a fact that being mad can see you escape getting your head chopped off for apostasy.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #71 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:56pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

Are you saying the 6th ruler of the fatimad caliphate was intolerant of engineers who realised they were wrong?

Evidently the 6th ruler of the fatimad caliphate was intolerant of engineers who promised them a great gift, then had to admit that actually they couldn't give it.

Is this unique to islam? Apparently so.

Is the islamic regime the only regime to make bombastic servants of the ruler fearful for their lives if they back out of an agreement? Apparently so.

knock knock baron - anyone there??

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #72 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:30pm

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Except that the primary source doesn't actually say anything. You harp on about primary and secondary sources, but completely ignore the elephant in the room. The only thing the 'primary' source proves is that the guy existed.

no, we know he existed anyway - that was never in dispute.

There is enough proof in the secondary sources alone to believe that he did what is claimed. This is the standard we set for most historical knowledge we have going that far back in time. Case in point is the Eilmer of malmesbury character who's feat no one disputes - despite coming from a single secondary source. The existence of the primary source - which states pretty clearly what he did - is just an added bonus.

Why don't we dispense with this infantile debate and accept that 1. there is no good reason to believe that it was an "obvious fabrication" as you originally claimed, and that no one except you seriously entertains this belief. and 2. it has never been, nor will it ever be, hailed by muslims as the be-all and end-all to islamic achievement in science.

Why don't you do some actual research and find out for yourself what muslims did during the golden age. Read "Science and Islam: a history" by Ehsan massood - as I have just started. Or at least give me a valid argument or source demonstrating how either 1. muslim scientists during the golden age made no meaningful contributions or 2. islam actively "stifles" science - which is what this thread is supposed to be about remember?

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

So because someone else wrote it, it must be true?

seems to be the approach you adopt. You come out saying "no way this guy contributed anything - because wiki told me he did jibberish and in any case nothing attributed to him was real". I merely point out that there is two sides to that debate. Am I saying one is defintely right? No. Thats the difference between you and me.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

I would go with a physicist or chemist.

Good for you. One problem though is that in those days, there were so many polymaths (people who excelled in multiple fields) so more often than not a great physicist was also a great chemist. But I'm sure you can decide for yourself - this is after all a subjective exercise.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #73 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:35pm

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

That is why Einstein and Newton for example are regarded as some of the greatest scientists in History, whereas we have never even heard of these Muslim scientists and would not have been talking about them if not for Muslims propping up midgets.

Great muslim scientists like Al Haytham - as well as the importance of islamic science in general - are actually well known amongst scientists and historians in the west. Of course closed minded people like yourself aren't going to be interested in people you have already decided are insignificant. I refer you back to the article that came from a western science institute I quoted earlier.

From The Tech Museum of Innovation in the US, who recently held an exhibition of islamic science:

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Did you know…

The first modern hospital was built in Baghdad over a thousand years ago?
Persian scholars developed the foundations for modern algebra and algorithms?
We get the word "camera" from the Arab word "qamara"?
Inoculation was written about in 8th century India, long before it gained popularity in Europe?
In the 10th century, a Persian surgeon invented many of the surgical tools we still use today?
An engineer from Mesopotamia developed the camshaft along with other commonly used machines?
By the year 644, Persians were using windmills to manage their water supply?
A man in Cordoba took flight over a millennium before the Wright brothers were born?
A 10th century Persian surgeon used catgut for internal stitches?
A 13th century Arab doctor described the circulatory system 300 years before William Harvey?

http://www.thetech.org/islamic_science_rediscovered/

Of course all this is common knowledge in scientific and historical circles. Much as I'd love to trust your undeniable intellectual prowess FD, I'm going to go with the experts on this one.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

I am not asking you for a quantitative measure.

Top 100? Not quantitative? Interesting.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

If you come up with who you think is the greatest Muslim scientist of all time, I will do another comparison for you.

Of course you will. And you'll say something profound like "hmm yeah, interesting suggestion Gandalf - but you know what? I'm going to go with 'they are scientific midgets, they probably didn't exist, and even if they did, nothing that is attributed to them can be believed'. I'm going to keep my eurocentric hat on, and remain ignorant of all the great islamic scientific achievements".

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Why are you afraid to suggest who you think is the greatest Muslim scientist of all time?

lol why are you so afraid to understand the most simple english?

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

A man who was kept under house arrest by the Caliph after he was summoned to complete a hairbrained scheme, and who then felt the need to pretend to be insane to protect him

right, and that has everything to do with islam stifling science - as opposed to, I don't know, an autocrat getting pissed off that some upstart engineer promised him a great gift, then reneged on the agreement? No doubt nothing like that happened in non-scientific-stifling societies right?

Just so we're clear, this is the same caliph who built the famous "house of knowledge" - a place of learning and innovation renound all over the world:

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In the area of education and learning, one of Hakim’s most important contributions was the founding in 1005 of the Dar al-‘ilm (House of Knowledge), sometimes also called Dar al-hikma.[20] A wide range of subjects ranging from the Qur’an and hadith to philosophy and astronomy were taught at the Dar al-‘ilm, which was equipped with a vast library. Access to education was made available to the public and many Fatimid da‘is received at least part of their training in this major institution of learning which served the Ismaili da‘wa (mission) until the downfall of the Fatimid dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah#House_of_Knowledge

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The Imam-Caliph al-Hakim was a great patron of learning and provided paper, pens, ink and inkstands without charge to all those who wished to study there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Knowledge

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #74 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:30pm:

1. muslim scientists during the golden age made no meaningful contributions or 2. islam actively "stifles" science - which is what this thread is supposed to be about remember?

1. they were interested only in science that supported the Koran
2. Muslim scientists have never and will never conduct research that may contradict the Koran.

Why?

3. for a scientist to put science above Islam in a Muslim country amounts to apostasy and so it is not done.
4 there is no freedom of thought under Islam. So there is no open inquiry, whether scientific, artistic or literary or theological or any other kind. Everything, absolutely everything is subservient to what's in the Koran.

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