Australian Politics Forum - Islam stifles basic science

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95297 Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #75 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:29pm Thanks, old chap. Never and never. Smart. You’re saying that no scientific research has ever been done by a Muselman in a Muselman country because he might get stung for apostasy. Fascinating. Does this include cultural studies?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #76 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:40pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

1. they were interested only in science that supported the Koran
2. Muslim scientists have never and will never conduct research that may contradict the Koran.

Why?

3. for a scientist to put science above Islam in a Muslim country amounts to apostasy and so it is not done.
4 there is no freedom of thought under Islam. So there is no open inquiry, whether scientific, artistic or literary or theological or any other kind. Everything, absolutely everything is subservient to what's in the Koran.

the evidence disagrees with you.

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It may therefore come as a surprise to many people that there is a long and vibrant intellectual tradition of dissidence and freethinking going back to the Middle Ages. The Islamic thinkers of the early medieval period expressed ideas and engaged in debates that would appear strangely enlightened in comparison with the attitudes and views adopted by modern Islamic scholarship.

Why do you guys insist on portraying the islamic golden age as some period of scientific stagnation? Its not called the golden age for nothing you know.

You'd be far better for criticising islam for its current period of stagnation - in just about all areas. That would be a legitimate discussion, and one that I would be endorsing. I would even extend this to criticising contemporary muslims for harking back too much to the "good ol' days" as some substitute for islam's current woes.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #77 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:40pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Thanks, old chap. Never and never. Smart.

You’re saying that no scientific research has ever been done by a Muselman in a Muselman country because he might get stung for apostasy. Fascinating.

Does this include cultural studies?

Cultural studies?

You mean like a moslem researcher, asserting that Mohammed the Apostle of Allah, liked to drink camel urine ?

But to say such a thing, could be construed as being insulting to Mohammed, the Apostle of Allah.

So that, that moslem [who was foolish enough to utter such a cultural 'highlight'] would never have an 'opportunity' to repeat that gem of truth.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #78 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:58pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:40pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Thanks, old chap. Never and never. Smart.

You’re saying that no scientific research has ever been done by a Muselman in a Muselman country because he might get stung for apostasy. Fascinating.

Does this include cultural studies?

Cultural studies?

You mean like a moslem researcher, asserting that Mohammed the Apostle of Allah, liked to drink camel urine?

Exactly. Take the Bradford School of Post-Colon Studies. There are some Muslim scholars there who’ve solved the problem of blocked bowels in the elderly and infirm. Can you imagine?

It’s all peer-reviewed and tested. Apparently it involves reading your posts to them out loud until they can’t take it anymore and....

It’s out in next month’s Lancet, Y. Groundbreaking stuff.

The old boy was cured in less than an hour. There’s only one small problem.

The patient can relapse. Well, perhaps the right term is reflux. The blocked stool, you see, passes upwards and - out of one’s mouth as it were.

We might observe the old boy uttering copious amounts of sh!t for quite some time - a definite improvement on his usual work as I’m sure you’ll agree.

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:11pm by Karnal »

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Yadda

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #79 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:05pm

If the ethical standard of moslem science is beyond reproach, then why do moslem achedemics refuse to confront the 'implications' of the Sana Koran parchments ???

The Sana Koran parchments were discovered in Sana, Yemen in 1972.
i.e.
revealing the evident editing and fabrication that took place, in the compiling of the 'inerrant' Koran.

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The Sana'a palimpsest is one of the oldest Qur'anic manuscripts in existence.[1] It was found, along with many other Qur'anic and non-Qur'anic fragments, in Yemen in 1972 during restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

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Would the Earliest Quranic Manuscripts of Sana’a Spell the Downfall of Islam?
Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:56

The earliest Quranic manuscripts discovered in the Sana'a mosque in Yemen not only differ from the standard version, but disagree amongst themselves. Since Muslims believe that the Quran contains the verses of Allah word for word, the new finds may unravel the 'Pandora's Box' for Islam...

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46

Q.
Why is there almost always no apparent integrity, in almost anything which moslems undertake - in whatever field of endeavour ?
e.g.
Moslems have even been 'caught out' cheating at cricket!

A.

Because ISLAM is a false religion, for a false people.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95297 Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #80 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:14pm Thanks, Y. The old boy’s bowels are loosening as we speak. Keep up the good work. Any chance you could put all this on an audio file?
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Soren

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #81 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:20pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

You’re saying that no scientific research has ever been done by a Muselman in a Muselman country because he might get stung for apostasy.

That contradicts the Koran and Islam.

but of course you are fully aware of your deliberate distortion. That's why you make it.

That's what cultural studies is, innit, deliberate distortions. That's the Paki Bvgger way. It's the culture. Inverting.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #82 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:23pm polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:40pm: Why do you guys insist on portraying the islamic golden age as some period of scientific stagnation? Its not called the golden age for nothing you know. Nobody has ever said that it was a period of stagnation. It just wasn't as golden as you think.
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Yadda

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #83 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:25pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Thanks, Y. The old boy’s bowels are loosening as we speak.

Keep up the good work.

Any chance you could put all this on an audio file?

Don't believe a single word 'uttered' by this person, folks.

Over the period of his sojourn, here on OzPol, Karnal has revealed himself to be a person who has no sincere opinions of his own which he is willing to reveal in this public forum.

Why would that be ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #84 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:35pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:20pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

You’re saying that no scientific research has ever been done by a Muselman in a Muselman country because he might get stung for apostasy.

That contradicts the Koran and Islam.

but of course you are fully aware of your deliberate distortion. That's why you make it.

That's what cultural studies is, innit, deliberate distortions. That's the Paki Bvgger way. It's the culture. Inverting.

I see. So what exactly does contradict the Koran, old chap?

Anything taught in any of the hundreds of universities and medical schools throughout the Muslim world?

Try not to speak with your mouth full, dear.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islam stifles basic science Reply #85 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:41pm You go and fooking find out what contradict the Koran, PB. Go ahead, experiment. But in reality, everyone in so called 'muslim lands', living under the dictatorship of mullahs, have an inbuilt censor. "If I write or say this, they will arrest me and try me for blasphemy." You stoopid, dishonest poof.
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Karnal

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #86 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:56pm

I see. Architects, engineers, chemists, nuclear physicists, poets, mural artists, literary critics, psychoanalists. Never and never.

Thanks, old chap. You’ve solved that one - another case closed.

Lucky we have freedom of thought in our religion, eh?

I say, is that a stool.sample on your collar?

Ah - lunch. Jolly good. I trust the wife’s good with stains.

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:04pm by Karnal »

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freediver

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #87 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:07pm

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I never said I believed he is the greatest

And I never said that you said you believed he is the greatest. Well done.

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use your brain for once, and look at the entire quote

You could try the same. You even quoted me saying what is obviously not what you attributed to me.

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the idea that this episode hampered his scientific career is ridiculous

Actually I thought it was kind of ironic that he got a lot of his work done because of his house arrest.

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Finally, what the frying truck has this got anything to do with islam stifling science??

That's why I am asking you to explain why this guy would feel the need to pretend to be crazy. You brought him up. He is your example. The house arrest thing, pretending to be crazy, impossible engineering feats... It's not a good look, but I don't claim to be able to make sense of it. All I know is that every counterexample you bring up seems to undermine your own case, and this looks like going the same way.

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He dissapointed a civic minded caliph - not insulted the prophet or renounced his religion - as Baron tried to convince us.

I am not talking about what Baron said. You brought him up. Check the wikipedia article about him. I see this time you were smart enough not to post a link to the information that undermines your argument. It is all in there. Can you explain why he feared for his life, and why pretending to be crazy was a way out?

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Its like saying something stupid like an engineer who couldn't build a bridge for King John of England - after promising that he could - then rightly fears for his life - and that is a perfect example of how christianity stifles science.

Except that kings are not mandated in the Bible. Caliphs are. Muhammed was one. We can add that to the list of mechanisms for when we get round to discussing that. In many ways the church shielded early scientists from this sort of BS.

Also, the article says nothing about him promising anything. He was ordered to do the impossible.

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There is enough proof in the secondary sources alone to believe that he did what is claimed.

Except that you can not even figure out what that claim is. You parroted the propaganda line that he built the first hang glider, then attempted to attribute that to your own personal error, even though 30 seconds on google will show you countless examples of Muslims spinning the same BS story. Then you said his invention was identical to some other guy, whose invention is also unknown. You keep insisting we have all this evidence to prove he invented what is attributed to him - the only problem is that you still don't even know what that is.

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This is the standard we set for most historical knowledge we have going that far back in time. Case in point is the Eilmer of malmesbury character who's feat no one disputes - despite coming from a single secondary source.

The internet is not full of Christians falsely attributing things to him. He is a mere footnote in history. He doesn't top lists like Abu's.

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Why don't we dispense with this infantile debate and accept that 1. there is no good reason to believe that it was an "obvious fabrication" as you originally claimed

Except that it was an obvious fabrication. You admitted this. The fabrication is widespread and accepted unquestioningly by Muslims. This is the sort of thing that should have been in Abu's "setting the record straight" thread. Maybe then you wouldn't have been caught up the in absurd Islamic propaganda.

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Why don't you do some actual research and find out for yourself what muslims did during the golden age.

That's why I am asking you who you think the greatest Muslim scientist was. Was it the guy who pretended to be crazy out of fear for his life? Was it Mr Gibberish? Was it the guy who outflew the phoenix? Can you refer to to any other poems making fun of great Muslim scientists?

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Read "Science and Islam: a history" by Ehsan massood - as I have just started.

Nice. I hope he does a better job than Abu of setting the record straight. Somehow I doubt it. Let us know what you figure out.

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Or at least give me a valid argument or source demonstrating how either 1. muslim scientists during the golden age made no meaningful contributions

How about this: not a single Muslim scientist deserves to be on the top 100 list.

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or 2. islam actively "stifles" science - which is what this thread is supposed to be about remember?

Your own arguments here are evidence of that. We even have you trying to take personal credit for the fabrications of other Muslims about the grand contributions from Muslim scientists. It is not enough for you people to falsely claim credit for the science, you also have to falsely claim credit for falsely claiming credit. It's like some kind of weird game.

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:16pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #88 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:13pm

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seems to be the approach you adopt. You come out saying "no way this guy contributed anything - because wiki told me he did jibberish and in any case nothing attributed to him was real"

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81bir_ibn_Hayy%C4%81n

As early as the 10th century, the identity and exact corpus of works of Jābir was in dispute in Islamic circles.

Jābir states in his Book of Stones (4:12) that "The purpose is to baffle and lead into error everyone except those whom God loves and provides for". His works seem to have been deliberately written in highly esoteric code (see steganography), so that only those who had been initiated into his alchemical school could understand them. It is therefore difficult at best for the modern reader to discern which aspects of Jābir's work are to be read as symbols (and what those symbols mean), and what is to be taken literally. Because his works rarely made overt sense, the term gibberish is believed to have originally referred to his writings (Hauck, p. 19)

Jābir's alchemical investigations ostensibly revolved around the ultimate goal of takwin — the artificial creation of life. The Book of Stones includes several recipes for creating creatures such as scorpions, snakes, and even humans in a laboratory environment, which are subject to the control of their creator. What Jābir meant by these recipes is unknown.

In some sources, he is reported to have been the son of Hayyan al-Azdi, a pharmacist of the Arabian Azd tribe who emigrated from Yemen to Kufa (in present-day Iraq) during the Umayyad Caliphate.[14][15] while Henry Corbin believes Geber seems to have been a client of the 'Azd tribe.[16] Jābir became an alchemist at the court of Caliph Harun al-Rashid, for whom he wrote the Kitab al-Zuhra ("The Book of Venus", on "the noble art of alchemy").[citation needed] Hayyan had supported the Abbasid revolt against the Umayyads, and was sent by them to the province of Khorasan (present day Afghanistan and Iran) to gather support for their cause. He was eventually caught by the Umayyads and executed

After the Abbasids took power, Jābir went back to Kufa. He began his career practicing medicine, under the patronage of a Vizir (from the noble Persian family Barmakids) of Caliph Harun al-Rashid. His connections to the Barmakid cost him dearly in the end. When that family fell from grace in 803, Jābir was placed under house arrest in Kufa, where he remained until his death.

In total, nearly 3,000 treatises and articles are credited to Jabir ibn Hayyan.[19] Following the pioneering work of Paul Kraus, who demonstrated that a corpus of some several hundred works ascribed to Jābir were probably a medley from different hands,[10][20] mostly dating to the late 9th and early 10th centuries

A few more examples in there of how Islam stifles basic science. We even have another house arrest of a prominent scientist (but obviously not the greatest of all time - I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I hope prominent is OK). Or is this the same guy again?

If you think wikipedia is wrong, please enlighten us.

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I merely point out that there is two sides to that debate.

One being gibberish?

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Great muslim scientists like Al Haytham - as well as the importance of islamic science in general - are actually well known amongst scientists and historians in the west.

Like the gibberish guy? He is hardly a househould name like Einstein or Newton (I don't think that having the term gibberish coined after yourself counts).

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Of course closed minded people like yourself aren't going to be interested in people you have already decided are insignificant.

I keep asking you for one that you think is most significant or who deserves to be on the top 100 list. You are going to great lengths to avoid passing such a judgement. You could always give it a try.

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Of course you will. And you'll say something profound like "hmm yeah, interesting suggestion Gandalf - but you know what? I'm going to go with 'they are scientific midgets, they probably didn't exist, and even if they did, nothing that is attributed to them can be believed'.

How about he didn't invent the hang glider, he just glued feathers to his arms and broke his neck? Or he deliberately wrote gibberish to confuse people? Or he was put under house arrest and had to pretend to be mad? I am still waiting for you to come up with an example that doesn't reinforce my argument.

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Just so we're clear, this is the same caliph who built the famous "house of knowledge" - a place of learning and innovation renound all over the world:

This is what makes the contrast so extraordinary. So much opportunity, so little result. It's not like I am having a go at the Aborigines for not contributing anything. These people squandered a golden opportunity, and the best that can be said about them is that they did not destroy too much knowledge.

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I would even extend this to criticising contemporary muslims for harking back too much to the "good ol' days" as some substitute for islam's current woes.

Like the golden age when Muslims invented the hang glider but then forgot how it works? Or scientists were placed under house arrest? Or they deliberately wrote gibberish to confuse people and prevent them gaining access to the precious knowledge?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #89 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:13pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

I see. Architects, engineers, chemists, nuclear physicists, poets, mural artists, literary critics, psychoanalists. Never and never.

Thanks, old chap. You’ve solved that one - another case closed.

Lucky we have freedom of thought in our religion, eh?

I say, is that a stool.sample on your collar?

Ah - lunch. Jolly good. I trust the wife’s good with stains.

You are rambling incoherently, PB.

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