Australian Politics Forum - So are they illegal now?

greggerypeccary

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #90 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:37pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 9:35am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 14^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 14^th, 2013 at 11:27am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 13^th, 2013 at 7:23pm:

When is something "unlawful" not illegal???

'Unlawful' means not authorized by law.

'Illegal' means forbidden by law.

Something 'illegal' is expressly proscribed by statute, and something 'unlawful' is just not expressly authorised.

A subtle difference that I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 13^th, 2013 at 7:23pm:

Just can't get your head around the FACT they are illegal immigrants, eh?

That is 100% incorrect.

Asylum seekers are neither 'illegal' nor 'immigrants'.

Okay, lets humour you. If we say that they are not immigrants then we're getting somewhere. By definition, a person seeking asylum is not necessarily seeking permanent resettlement. A true asylum seeker is looking for a safe haven until their homeland is safe to return to. That isn't the case with these people who come in the tens of thousands by boat. They seek to stay because - as they put it - life is better here. Can't say I blame them for wanting to live here, but there is a proper process for moving here and they are abusing it.

No, they're not abusing any "proper process".

Asylum seeking is a perfectly valid and legal component of Australia's Humanitarian Program.

You may wish to do a little research on this subject.

Australia has a very generous refugee intake program. These people are abusing it by flying into Indonesia with a passport and visa on international flights with the sole purpose of paying people smugglers to board leaking boats for a dangerous voyage to come here. Not only do they throw their passports and identifying documents overboard, they breach UNHCR rules on what constitutes a refugee by passing through a safe country on their way here. That voids their claim for asylum. So not only do they take the place of genuine refugees suffering in UN camps with little or no security, food and health care, they do not even meet the UN's own criteria for claiming asylum. Besides all that, asylum seekers generally request asylum as a safe haven until their country is safe to return to. These people are still on welfare years after arriving, creating a massive drain on government revenue. To top it all off, this mess is entirely of Labor's making from way back in 2008 when Rudd scrapped a policy that was clearly working - the Pacific Solution. So any way you look at it, your position is that of a first-class loser!

I'm merely presenting the official position of the Government. You know, the people who make the laws?

Asylum seeking is a perfectly valid and legal component of Australia's Humanitarian Program.

If you can't handle the facts, that's your problem.

Slinging personal abuse isn't going to give your "argument" any validity.

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Maqqa

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #91 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:50pm

Lets look at this issue in stages

ANYONE wishing to cross Australian borders (which is over water because Aust is an island) needs a VISA ie an entry permit.

A VISA is an identifier of people wishing to enter/stay in Aust as well as their reason for being in Aust.

For citizens
Your passport is your VISA back into Australia.

For non-citizens
You must apply for this entry permit. The essential elements of a VISA application is who are you and why are you here.

Application of a VISA
Can be done in your own country, a neighbouring country or at the border.

So the above are the basics of entering Australia.

Next comes the asylum issue.

The asylum issue usually cross over to the VISA issue where the person claiming asylum makes a claim at the border.

People need to be aware of the different laws applying as a person moving from one side of the border to another

Crossing Aust borders without a VISA is illegal under the Migration Act s4 and is subject to deportation

Officers under this Act are allowed to suspend deportation if the person ask for a VISA at the border based on asylum under the UN Refugee convention

At this stage - they still do not have a VISA ie they do not have an entry permit. Therefore they are still are in Australia illegally.

You are not assumed to be an asylum seeker just because you submit a claim. All claims made must be verified.

Once verified - you are given the asylum seeker status. You then use this status to include in your VISA application and you are issued with a VISA based on this status.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 139931 Gender:	Re: So are they illegal now? Reply #92 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:00pm Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:50pm: You are not assumed to be an asylum seeker just because you submit a claim. Yes, you are. However, you are not assumed to be a refugee. Once again you are confusing the two terms. There is no application form or approval process to become an asylum seeker.
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Maqqa

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #93 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:13pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

You are not assumed to be an asylum seeker just because you submit a claim.

Yes, you are.

However, you are not assumed to be a refugee.

Once again you are confusing the two terms.

There is no application form or approval process to become an asylum seeker.

Asylum claim - seeking/claiming protection/shelter from anything

This claim needs to be verified

Refugee - is a person whose is fleeing persecution and they are claiming asylum in that country

Therefore in context of refugee - an asylum claim is a claim for protection based on refugee criteria

So it seems you are confusing asylum seeker with refugee

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adelcrow

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #94 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:20pm

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:13pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

You are not assumed to be an asylum seeker just because you submit a claim.

Yes, you are.

However, you are not assumed to be a refugee.

Once again you are confusing the two terms.

There is no application form or approval process to become an asylum seeker.

Asylum claim - seeking/claiming protection/shelter from anything

This claim needs to be verified

Refugee - is a person whose is fleeing persecution and they are claiming asylum in that country

Therefore in context of refugee - an asylum claim is a claim for protection based on refugee criteria

So it seems you are confusing asylum seeker with refugee

Call em what you like Maqqa but its not illegal to escape persecution and claim asylum in another country.
It happens many times a day all over the world.

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Maqqa

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #95 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:21pm

adelcrow wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:20pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:13pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

You are not assumed to be an asylum seeker just because you submit a claim.

Yes, you are.

However, you are not assumed to be a refugee.

Once again you are confusing the two terms.

There is no application form or approval process to become an asylum seeker.

Asylum claim - seeking/claiming protection/shelter from anything

This claim needs to be verified

Refugee - is a person whose is fleeing persecution and they are claiming asylum in that country

Therefore in context of refugee - an asylum claim is a claim for protection based on refugee criteria

So it seems you are confusing asylum seeker with refugee

Call em what you like Maqqa but its not illegal to escape persecution and claim asylum in another country.
It happens many times a day all over the world.

never said it was

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Dnarever

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #96 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:34pm

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:13pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

You are not assumed to be an asylum seeker just because you submit a claim.

Yes, you are.

However, you are not assumed to be a refugee.

Once again you are confusing the two terms.

There is no application form or approval process to become an asylum seeker.

Asylum claim - seeking/claiming protection/shelter from anything

This claim needs to be verified

Refugee - is a person whose is fleeing persecution and they are claiming asylum in that country

Therefore in context of refugee - an asylum claim is a claim for protection based on refugee criteria

So it seems you are confusing asylum seeker with refugee

No I would say it is you who seems to confuse illegal with everything.

An asylum seeker is not an illegal and neither is a refugee.

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: So are they illegal now? Reply #97 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:56pm Dnarever wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:34pm: No I would say it is you who seems to confuse illegal with everything. An asylum seeker is not an illegal and neither is a refugee. You are now going around and around You have given them the title "asylum seeker" as it their asylum claim have been verified
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greggerypeccary

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #98 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:58pm

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:13pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

You are not assumed to be an asylum seeker just because you submit a claim.

Yes, you are.

However, you are not assumed to be a refugee.

Once again you are confusing the two terms.

There is no application form or approval process to become an asylum seeker.

Asylum claim - seeking/claiming protection/shelter from anything

This claim needs to be verified

Refugee - is a person whose is fleeing persecution and they are claiming asylum in that country

Therefore in context of refugee - an asylum claim is a claim for protection based on refugee criteria

So it seems you are confusing asylum seeker with refugee

Nope, I'm not confused about anything.

I know the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee.

I know the difference between illegal and unlawful.

I know the difference between a superseded Act and a current Act.

And, I know the difference between an alien and an illegal alien.

Get back to me when you can say the same, and we'll talk Wink

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Maqqa

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #99 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 4:00pm

NBNMyths wrote on Mar 14^th, 2013 at 2:32pm:

The Migration Act is clear. Asylum seekers intercepted at sea and escorted to the Australian migration zone are considered lawful non-citizens under the Migration Act, and therefore cannot be described as "illegals".

Would you like a baby wipe to get that egg of your face? Grin

Quote:

MIGRATION ACT 1958 - SECT 13

Lawful non-citizens
(1) A non-citizen in the migration zone who holds a visa that is in effect is a lawful non-citizen.

NBNMyth - in the posts claims the Migration Act says if you are escorted to the migration zone then you become a lawful non-citizen

Yet I have provided the exact wordings in the Act and it clearly states you need a VISA

You better use that wipe on your face NBNMyth

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: So are they illegal now? Reply #100 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 4:01pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:58pm: Nope, I'm not confused about anything. I know the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee. Do tell with references
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greggerypeccary

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #101 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 4:43pm

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:56pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:34pm:

No I would say it is you who seems to confuse illegal with everything.

An asylum seeker is not an illegal and neither is a refugee.

You are now going around and around

You have given them the title "asylum seeker" as it their asylum claim have been verified

Their status as an asylum seeker doesn't have to be verified Maqqa.

Their status as a refugee, however, does have to be verified.

You're still getting the two confused Maqqa.

To become an asylum seeker: no application or verification required.

To become a refugee: application and verification is required.

Asylum seekers make a claim to be verified as a refugee, not to be verified as an asylum seeker.

By merely stating "I claim asylum" they become asylum seekers.

This isn't difficult Maqqa. Why are you still struggling?

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Maqqa

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #102 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 5:28pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 4:43pm:

Their status as an asylum seeker doesn't have to be verified Maqqa.

Their status as a refugee, however, does have to be verified.

Their claim of being persecuted needs to be verified

Once it's been verified - they are given that status

They will use that status to obtain a VISA

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: So are they illegal now? Reply #103 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 5:28pm Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 4:01pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:58pm: Nope, I'm not confused about anything. I know the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee. Do tell with references bump
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greggerypeccary

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Re: So are they illegal now?
Reply #104 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 5:29pm

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 4:01pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 3:58pm:

Nope, I'm not confused about anything.

I know the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee.

Do tell with references

bump

To become an asylum seeker: no application or verification required.

To become a refugee: application and verification is required.

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