Australian Politics Forum - How many old people leave everything to a church ?

longweekend58

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #90 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:56pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:53am:

and it is only in relatively recent times that science wasn't done almost entirely by the Church as was art literature and music. The positive atheist contribution to history is largely nonexistent

Because everyone was religious back in the old days. Now we know better - or some of us do.

SOB

if you are trying to use yourself as an example of the value of atheism may I suggest that you do your argument irreparable harm! you are the stupidest poster on here and that in a group that has some pretty dumb posters.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #91 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:14pm

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist?

This happens very regularly. Post-modern atheists are no exception. Generally, the modern-day atheist is an egalitarian and a believer in equality. Where does equality exist? Where does the complete harmonious society exist? It doesn't. They are nothing but ideals and thus mental images in the heads of the modern day atheist.

Being a materialist, how does the post-modern atheist reconcile this? How can you critique religion from a materialist standpoint, but then go on to believe in immaterial ideas yourself?

Religious people are consistent on this point. Rarely do they try and justify their religion on material and/or empirical grounds. They do it, rather, on faith. But the materialist cannot justify their ideals on faith, as they would break one of their cardinal rules. So how does it ground equality when no empirical evidence of it exists?

It is doubly ironic that the post-modern atheist also gets these ideas of equality, harmony etc from religion. Atheists did not invent them; they inherited them from the past. They want to bring the religious heaven down to earth; establish nirvana in the phenomenal realm.

Today's peculiar brand of atheism is not as smart as it thinks it is. They just swallow slogans without thinking them through to their consequences.

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Quantum

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #92 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:26pm

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

what a pile of utter hogwash .... I call them idiots not because I am intellectually superior, but because in my opinion, anyone that believes in fairy tales, ogres, mystical beings that rule over the world or any other such nonsense can only be described as an idiot ...

I didn't say you were intellectually superior. I said you position yourself as being intellectually superior. Then you went ahead and posted the above in defense of that accusation. I rest my case.

Quote:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist? If anyone is looking down at anyone it is the religious zealots with their holier than though attitude ... get over yourself .. you want to believe it, fine, , but, in return I claim the right to believe that you are an idiot for doing so ... again, it's a faith thing ... you don't need to understand it, it is just what I believe ... or is that whole faith things solely reserved for when religious nuts cannot explain themselves?

Interesting that you claim not to tell people what to believe, but you will call people idiots for believing it anyway.

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You should not believe that

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You are an idiot for believing that

I fail to see the difference except person 2 in the first example is better mannered.

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corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ? Reply #93 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:41pm The Church will renew if it does the work of Jesus and it cares for Jesus...
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John Smith

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #94 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:16pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist?

This happens very regularly. Post-modern atheists are no exception. Generally, the modern-day atheist is an egalitarian and a believer in equality. Where does equality exist? Where does the complete harmonious society exist? It doesn't. They are nothing but ideals and thus mental images in the heads of the modern day atheist.

Being a materialist, how does the post-modern atheist reconcile this? How can you critique religion from a materialist standpoint, but then go on to believe in immaterial ideas yourself?

Religious people are consistent on this point. Rarely do they try and justify their religion on material and/or empirical grounds. They do it, rather, on faith. But the materialist cannot justify their ideals on faith, as they would break one of their cardinal rules. So how does it ground equality when no empirical evidence of it exists?

It is doubly ironic that the post-modern atheist also gets these ideas of equality, harmony etc from religion. Atheists did not invent them; they inherited them from the past. They want to bring the religious heaven down to earth; establish nirvana in the phenomenal realm.

Today's peculiar brand of atheism is not as smart as it thinks it is. They just swallow slogans without thinking them through to their consequences.

you want to compare belief in a fictional overlord to equality and harmony etc? Shocked

we can strive for things like equality, it is simply a way in which we would like to improve humanity as we see it . We cannot strive to become gods ... unless you are insane like whitey... A rather poor example I think.

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John Smith

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #95 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:27pm

Quantum wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:26pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

what a pile of utter hogwash .... I call them idiots not because I am intellectually superior, but because in my opinion, anyone that believes in fairy tales, ogres, mystical beings that rule over the world or any other such nonsense can only be described as an idiot ...

I didn't say you were intellectually superior. I said you position yourself as being intellectually superior. Then you went ahead and posted the above in defense of that accusation. I rest my case.

I don't position myself as being intellectually superior or inferior, that is for others to decide, I merely stated my opinion ... I can see why someone may take that attitude if they feel threatened or unsure of their belief, but that is for them to work out and not my fault. I cannot help how you interpret my comment

Quote:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist? If anyone is looking down at anyone it is the religious zealots with their holier than though attitude ... get over yourself .. you want to believe it, fine, , but, in return I claim the right to believe that you are an idiot for doing so ... again, it's a faith thing ... you don't need to understand it, it is just what I believe ... or is that whole faith things solely reserved for when religious nuts cannot explain themselves?

Interesting that you claim not to tell people what to believe, but you will call people idiots for believing it anyway.

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You should not believe that

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You are an idiot for believing that

I fail to see the difference except person 2 in the first example is better mannered.

I) When have I ever told anyone they shouldn't believe in Jesus ... I chose not to believe, you believe whatever you like

2) Since you asked, Who said I didn't believe in Jesus? He existed, although not in the way the bible has you believe ... he was referred to once in Roman records ..although those records simply say he was a criminal who was crucified ... no mention of a resurrection or any of the miracles he supposedly worked .. funny that considering the Romans were meticulous record keepers.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #96 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:45pm

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist?

This happens very regularly. Post-modern atheists are no exception. Generally, the modern-day atheist is an egalitarian and a believer in equality. Where does equality exist? Where does the complete harmonious society exist? It doesn't. They are nothing but ideals and thus mental images in the heads of the modern day atheist.

Being a materialist, how does the post-modern atheist reconcile this? How can you critique religion from a materialist standpoint, but then go on to believe in immaterial ideas yourself?

Religious people are consistent on this point. Rarely do they try and justify their religion on material and/or empirical grounds. They do it, rather, on faith. But the materialist cannot justify their ideals on faith, as they would break one of their cardinal rules. So how does it ground equality when no empirical evidence of it exists?

It is doubly ironic that the post-modern atheist also gets these ideas of equality, harmony etc from religion. Atheists did not invent them; they inherited them from the past. They want to bring the religious heaven down to earth; establish nirvana in the phenomenal realm.

Today's peculiar brand of atheism is not as smart as it thinks it is. They just swallow slogans without thinking them through to their consequences.

you want to compare belief in a fictional overlord to equality and harmony etc? Shocked

we can strive for things like equality, it is simply a way in which we would like to improve humanity as we see it . We cannot strive to become gods ... unless you are insane like whitey... A rather poor example I think.

But without an empirical or material base, equality remains a belief.
Equality doesn't exist, as you state, rather, you strive for it. It is almost identical to the Buddhist who strives for Nirvana - it's all in the mind!

There's nothing wrong with having beliefs and ideals, but it's a bit rich to badger the immaterialists when you use similar methods.

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longweekend58

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #97 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:50pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist?

This happens very regularly. Post-modern atheists are no exception. Generally, the modern-day atheist is an egalitarian and a believer in equality. Where does equality exist? Where does the complete harmonious society exist? It doesn't. They are nothing but ideals and thus mental images in the heads of the modern day atheist.

Being a materialist, how does the post-modern atheist reconcile this? How can you critique religion from a materialist standpoint, but then go on to believe in immaterial ideas yourself?

Religious people are consistent on this point. Rarely do they try and justify their religion on material and/or empirical grounds. They do it, rather, on faith. But the materialist cannot justify their ideals on faith, as they would break one of their cardinal rules. So how does it ground equality when no empirical evidence of it exists?

It is doubly ironic that the post-modern atheist also gets these ideas of equality, harmony etc from religion. Atheists did not invent them; they inherited them from the past. They want to bring the religious heaven down to earth; establish nirvana in the phenomenal realm.

Today's peculiar brand of atheism is not as smart as it thinks it is. They just swallow slogans without thinking them through to their consequences.

you want to compare belief in a fictional overlord to equality and harmony etc? Shocked

we can strive for things like equality, it is simply a way in which we would like to improve humanity as we see it . We cannot strive to become gods ... unless you are insane like whitey... A rather poor example I think.

But without an empirical or material base, equality remains a belief.
Equality doesn't exist, as you state, rather, you strive for it. It is almost identical to the Buddhist who strives for Nirvana - it's all in the mind!

There's nothing wrong with having beliefs and ideals, but it's a bit rich to badger the immaterialists when you use similar methods.

the question of the existence of God has no proof either way therefore to question the intelligence of anyone who has a faith-based opinion is wrong. And atheism is still in essence a faith-based position because t believes there is no God but has adequate evidence to prove it.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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buzzanddidj

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #98 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 5:25pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Mar 13^th, 2013 at 10:19am:

How many of those lonely old folks are stupid enough to leave everything to a church ?

NOTHING new, HERE

Quote:

Spinsters left all to church

Saturday 12 July 1952

MELBOURNE
Two well-educated spinsters who were found dead in loneliness and squalor in their Kew home last Saturday left everything to the Presbyterian Church.

Their wills, made In 1945, said proceeds of the sale of their two houses in Kew and Balwyn, bonds and £600 in money would go to the Presbyterian Church Home Mission in WA.

The women, stepsisters, were Miss Mary Evans, 85, and Miss Martha Carson, 75.
The women cut them selves off from the outside world about 15 years ago and devoted their lives to each other.
A post-mortem showed that they had been dead for about 10 days before being found.
They died from natural causes.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57697029

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'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

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Quantum

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #99 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 5:27pm

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:27pm:

I don't position myself as being intellectually superior or inferior, that is for others to decide, I merely stated my opinion ... I can see why someone may take that attitude if they feel threatened or unsure of their belief, but that is for them to work out and not my fault. I cannot help how you interpret my comment

Yet that is exactly what you are doing when you say something like this...

Quote:

"anyone that believes in fairy tales, ogres, mystical beings that rule over the world or any other such nonsense can only be described as an idiot"

This is not the words of someone thinking; 'I don't think I'm intellectually superior to this person, I just don't share their beliefs'. Saying 'anyone who believes X is an idiot' makes it very clear how you view your own intellect compared to theirs, especially when you have to misrepresent their beliefs to do it.

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting that you claim not to tell people what to believe, but you will call people idiots for believing it anyway.

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You should not believe that

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You are an idiot for believing that

I fail to see the difference except person 2 in the first example is better mannered.

I) When have I ever told anyone they shouldn't believe in Jesus ... I chose not to believe, you believe whatever you like

2) Since you asked, Who said I didn't believe in Jesus? He existed, although not in the way the bible has you believe ... he was referred to once in Roman records ..although those records simply say he was a criminal who was crucified ... no mention of a resurrection or any of the miracles he supposedly worked .. funny that considering the Romans were meticulous record keepers.

I never said you did directly. But calling someone an idiot for believing X isn't much different from telling them not to believe X. Calling someone an idiot for what they believe hardly fits with...

Quote:

I chose not to believe, you believe whatever you like.

If you really lived by that you wouldn't be calling everyone who isn't an atheist an idiot.

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longweekend58

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #100 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 5:42pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 5:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Mar 13^th, 2013 at 10:19am:

How many of those lonely old folks are stupid enough to leave everything to a church ?

NOTHING new, HERE

Quote:

Spinsters left all to church

Saturday 12 July 1952

MELBOURNE
Two well-educated spinsters who were found dead in loneliness and squalor in their Kew home last Saturday left everything to the Presbyterian Church.

Their wills, made In 1945, said proceeds of the sale of their two houses in Kew and Balwyn, bonds and £600 in money would go to the Presbyterian Church Home Mission in WA.

The women, stepsisters, were Miss Mary Evans, 85, and Miss Martha Carson, 75.
The women cut them selves off from the outside world about 15 years ago and devoted their lives to each other.
A post-mortem showed that they had been dead for about 10 days before being found.
They died from natural causes.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57697029

the point is that toenail beleives it shouldnt be ALLOWED for people to leave money to the church.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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John Smith

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #101 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:48pm

Quantum wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 5:27pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:27pm:

I don't position myself as being intellectually superior or inferior, that is for others to decide, I merely stated my opinion ... I can see why someone may take that attitude if they feel threatened or unsure of their belief, but that is for them to work out and not my fault. I cannot help how you interpret my comment

Yet that is exactly what you are doing when you say something like this...

Quote:

"anyone that believes in fairy tales, ogres, mystical beings that rule over the world or any other such nonsense can only be described as an idiot"

wrong , I am merely giving my opinion on the topic at hand. Are you suggesting that the only opinions I can give are those that you or the person asking agree with? Otherwise I am positioning myself as intellectually superior .. ????? Like I said, you are free to interpret my response anyway you like, and 10 different people can have 10 different variations on how they may interpret it, each dependant on their own experiences.

This is not the words of someone thinking; 'I don't think I'm intellectually superior to this person, I just don't share their beliefs'. Saying 'anyone who believes X is an idiot' makes it very clear how you view your own intellect compared to theirs, especially when you have to misrepresent their beliefs to do it.

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting that you claim not to tell people what to believe, but you will call people idiots for believing it anyway.

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You should not believe that

Person 1: I believe in Jesus
Person 2: You are an idiot for believing that

I fail to see the difference except person 2 in the first example is better mannered.

I) When have I ever told anyone they shouldn't believe in Jesus ... I chose not to believe, you believe whatever you like

2) Since you asked, Who said I didn't believe in Jesus? He existed, although not in the way the bible has you believe ... he was referred to once in Roman records ..although those records simply say he was a criminal who was crucified ... no mention of a resurrection or any of the miracles he supposedly worked .. funny that considering the Romans were meticulous record keepers.

I never said you did directly. But calling someone an idiot for believing X isn't much different from telling them not to believe X. Calling someone an idiot for what they believe hardly fits with...

it is very different, you are judging me by your standards , my response is determined by totally different standards ..

Quote:

I chose not to believe, you believe whatever you like.

If you really lived by that you wouldn't be calling everyone who isn't an atheist an idiot.

but I don't call them all idiots ... only those who ask me for my OPINION .

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John Smith

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #102 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist?

This happens very regularly. Post-modern atheists are no exception. Generally, the modern-day atheist is an egalitarian and a believer in equality. Where does equality exist? Where does the complete harmonious society exist? It doesn't. They are nothing but ideals and thus mental images in the heads of the modern day atheist.

Being a materialist, how does the post-modern atheist reconcile this? How can you critique religion from a materialist standpoint, but then go on to believe in immaterial ideas yourself?

Religious people are consistent on this point. Rarely do they try and justify their religion on material and/or empirical grounds. They do it, rather, on faith. But the materialist cannot justify their ideals on faith, as they would break one of their cardinal rules. So how does it ground equality when no empirical evidence of it exists?

It is doubly ironic that the post-modern atheist also gets these ideas of equality, harmony etc from religion. Atheists did not invent them; they inherited them from the past. They want to bring the religious heaven down to earth; establish nirvana in the phenomenal realm.

Today's peculiar brand of atheism is not as smart as it thinks it is. They just swallow slogans without thinking them through to their consequences.

you want to compare belief in a fictional overlord to equality and harmony etc? Shocked

we can strive for things like equality, it is simply a way in which we would like to improve humanity as we see it . We cannot strive to become gods ... unless you are insane like whitey... A rather poor example I think.

But without an empirical or material base, equality remains a belief.
Equality doesn't exist, as you state, rather, you strive for it. It is almost identical to the Buddhist who strives for Nirvana - it's all in the mind!

There's nothing wrong with having beliefs and ideals, but it's a bit rich to badger the immaterialists when you use similar methods.

Firstly, you likened atheism to equality, not me, personally I don't see the connection but since you asked,
equality does exist, and you are right, I strive for it ... I have some equality in my immediate family ... how can I measure it? well one way of measuring it is by the fact that I have to cook even though I don't like cooking , I take turns changing nappies even though I don't want to .. these are all measurements I can use to justify that equality exists .. how can you justify that god exists?

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John Smith

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #103 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:59pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:50pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

how else can someone justify a belief in something that doesn't exist?

This happens very regularly. Post-modern atheists are no exception. Generally, the modern-day atheist is an egalitarian and a believer in equality. Where does equality exist? Where does the complete harmonious society exist? It doesn't. They are nothing but ideals and thus mental images in the heads of the modern day atheist.

Being a materialist, how does the post-modern atheist reconcile this? How can you critique religion from a materialist standpoint, but then go on to believe in immaterial ideas yourself?

Religious people are consistent on this point. Rarely do they try and justify their religion on material and/or empirical grounds. They do it, rather, on faith. But the materialist cannot justify their ideals on faith, as they would break one of their cardinal rules. So how does it ground equality when no empirical evidence of it exists?

It is doubly ironic that the post-modern atheist also gets these ideas of equality, harmony etc from religion. Atheists did not invent them; they inherited them from the past. They want to bring the religious heaven down to earth; establish nirvana in the phenomenal realm.

Today's peculiar brand of atheism is not as smart as it thinks it is. They just swallow slogans without thinking them through to their consequences.

you want to compare belief in a fictional overlord to equality and harmony etc? Shocked

we can strive for things like equality, it is simply a way in which we would like to improve humanity as we see it . We cannot strive to become gods ... unless you are insane like whitey... A rather poor example I think.

But without an empirical or material base, equality remains a belief.
Equality doesn't exist, as you state, rather, you strive for it. It is almost identical to the Buddhist who strives for Nirvana - it's all in the mind!

There's nothing wrong with having beliefs and ideals, but it's a bit rich to badger the immaterialists when you use similar methods.

the question of the existence of God has no proof either way therefore to question the intelligence of anyone who has a faith-based opinion is wrong. And atheism is still in essence a faith-based position because t believes there is no God but has adequate evidence to prove it.

do you think it is at all logical for me to create a mythical being from outer space, lets call it a wegorman, and ask you to provide evidence that it doesn't exist? bugger your an idiot

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corporate_whitey

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Re: How many old people leave everything to a church ?
Reply #104 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 10:16pm

Quote:

Malachi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

Bring your goods and your money to the storehouse of God so that his workers may feed the world...for freely you have received now freely give...Gods workers must convince the corporate world to pour their wealth into Gods work and feed the poor...

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