Australian Politics Forum - Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?

john_g

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #15 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:19am

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:10am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

I am a swing voter who is very disillusioned with both major parties, especially Labor,but I think the Greens are even worse than both parties.

What I would love to see is a good honest centrist party there to keep the bastards honest.

What a shame that the Democrats lost their way, they were originally this, but then shifted to the left.

Actually the Right, it was support for the GST that killed the Democrats.

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Which he lost, but got over the line with preferences.

The Democrats did exactly what they promised - they kept the bastards honest.

Howard took the GST to the election, and won a majority of seats and hence government.

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #16 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:26am

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:19am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:10am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

I am a swing voter who is very disillusioned with both major parties, especially Labor,but I think the Greens are even worse than both parties.

What I would love to see is a good honest centrist party there to keep the bastards honest.

What a shame that the Democrats lost their way, they were originally this, but then shifted to the left.

Actually the Right, it was support for the GST that killed the Democrats.

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Which he lost, but got over the line with preferences.

The Democrats did exactly what they promised - they kept the bastards honest.

Howard took the GST to the election, and won a majority of seats and hence government.

Quote:

Still, before the 1998 election, Howard proposed a GST that would replace all sales taxes, as well as applying to all goods and services. The Howard Government finished on a two-party-preferred vote of 49.02% at the election, suffering a swing of 4.61% to Labor on 50.98%. However, the incumbent government retained a parliamentary majority of seats in the lower house. Howard described the election win as a "mandate for the GST". Lacking a Senate majority, and with Labor opposed to the introduction of the GST, the government turned to the minor parties such as the Australian Democrats for support.

Some here are happy to say Tony won with the higher TPP, so they then must agree that Howard lost.

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john_g

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #17 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:29am

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:19am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:10am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

I am a swing voter who is very disillusioned with both major parties, especially Labor,but I think the Greens are even worse than both parties.

What I would love to see is a good honest centrist party there to keep the bastards honest.

What a shame that the Democrats lost their way, they were originally this, but then shifted to the left.

Actually the Right, it was support for the GST that killed the Democrats.

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Which he lost, but got over the line with preferences.

The Democrats did exactly what they promised - they kept the bastards honest.

Howard took the GST to the election, and won a majority of seats and hence government.

Quote:

Still, before the 1998 election, Howard proposed a GST that would replace all sales taxes, as well as applying to all goods and services. The Howard Government finished on a two-party-preferred vote of 49.02% at the election, suffering a swing of 4.61% to Labor on 50.98%. However, the incumbent government retained a parliamentary majority of seats in the lower house. Howard described the election win as a "mandate for the GST". Lacking a Senate majority, and with Labor opposed to the introduction of the GST, the government turned to the minor parties such as the Australian Democrats for support.

Some here are happy to say Tony won with the higher TPP, so they then must agree that Howard lost.

"Others" are not me.

Howard won fair and square in 1998, and for the record, I voted Labor.

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longweekend58

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #18 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 6:15pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

I am a swing voter who is very disillusioned with both major parties, especially Labor,but I think the Greens are even worse than both parties.

What I would love to see is a good honest centrist party there to keep the bastards honest.

What a shame that the Democrats lost their way, they were originally this, but then shifted to the left.

Actually the Right, it was support for the GST that killed the Democrats.

wrong. the Democrats died when they stopped being the party determined to make the others honest eg live up to their promises. it was a wildly effective policy and when natasha spot-remover decided to move the party away from that and beome a left-wing party, they died within 2 elections. and the very first thing they did as this new lefty party was oppose the GST which had a mandate from the winning party.

and now they are gone from every parliament.

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longweekend58

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #19 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 6:18pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:10am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

I am a swing voter who is very disillusioned with both major parties, especially Labor,but I think the Greens are even worse than both parties.

What I would love to see is a good honest centrist party there to keep the bastards honest.

What a shame that the Democrats lost their way, they were originally this, but then shifted to the left.

Actually the Right, it was support for the GST that killed the Democrats.

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Which he lost, but got over the line with preferences.

and gillard did what??? at least Howard actually had a majority!

and btw 2PP has precisely zero impact on elections. it is not mentioned in legislation or anything else. it is no more than a statistcial measuer that has come into play in recent years. polling didnt even mention it until 2001.

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Dnarever

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #20 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 6:47pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 6:15pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

john_g wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

I am a swing voter who is very disillusioned with both major parties, especially Labor,but I think the Greens are even worse than both parties.

What I would love to see is a good honest centrist party there to keep the bastards honest.

What a shame that the Democrats lost their way, they were originally this, but then shifted to the left.

Actually the Right, it was support for the GST that killed the Democrats.

wrong. the Democrats died when they stopped being the party determined to make the others honest eg live up to their promises. it was a wildly effective policy and when natasha spot-remover decided to move the party away from that and beome a left-wing party, they died within 2 elections. and the very first thing they did as this new lefty party was oppose the GST which had a mandate from the winning party.

and now they are gone from every parliament.

No idea LW - the GST killed the dems stone dead.

Virtually all their supporters believed they have voted for an iron clad position of no GST.

the Democrats died when they stopped being the party determined to make the others honest

The bit you got right the guys who were ment to keep the bastards honest became the dishonest bastards. The majority of their support base never voted domocrat again.

live up to their promises

Yes they stood in that election garanteeing to block the GST and the Leader bent over for Howard.

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mantra

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #21 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 6:49pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

Actually the Right, it was support for the GST that killed the Democrats.

True. The moment Lees sided with Howard on the GST - the Democrats went down the tube. Meg Lees destroyed the party. Stott Despoja wasn't interested in leading and had other issues to deal with.

The Greens made a mistake helping Gillard form government. They should have remained strong and independent and they would be a more viable party today. Labor made false promises and reneged on their deals with them - finally blaming them publicly for the government's failures.

The Greens compromised to their detriment, however they'll get through this and return to their core values quickly. Perhaps they won't do so well at the next Federal election, but they'll start catching up again when people realise we have wall to wall Coalition and no decent opposition.

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adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"? Reply #22 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 6:56pm The Greens are now the only alternative if you demand fair treatment for asylum seekers fleeing persecution. Labor and the Conservatives have shown that political football and dog whistling is more their style.
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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #23 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:20pm

skippy. wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:01am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 8:01am:

The lunatic Greens were never an alternative, just a protest vote against either of the two main parties...

As a GREENS supporter I would never want the party to represent the likes of you. We have our core support and as mantra has said we have never wanted to rule, much better to force the major paties to have a conscience.

Then the Greens have failed miserably, as Gillard's actions on the carbon dioxide tax show she has no conscience when it comes to lying to the Australian people.

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freediver

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #24 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:30pm

I think they will continue to rise, especially given labor's issues and inability to dump the unions. They will inevitably become more mainstream as part of this process. You only have to compare them now to ten years ago to see this trend.

A major part of the greens most recent decline is a swing to the coalition in general. Labor also lost a lot of ground. Don't confuse this with a permanent swing to the right. It always returns to some kind of 50/50 split. Unless another major party pops up to the right of the coalition and pushes them through the centre, it will swing back.

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mantra

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #25 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:37pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:20pm:

Then the Greens have failed miserably, as Gillard's actions on the carbon dioxide tax show she has no conscience when it comes to lying to the Australian peopl

The Greens have always spruiked for a carbon tax and initially that was part of the deal for their support of Labor. It's not their fault Gillard "lied". She should have told the truth immediately to the public as to why she changed her mind.

Regardless - we would have got a carbon tax anyway. The big boys want to gamble in international carbon trading which has recently been legislated.

There is no way Abbott can undo it. His masters won't let him. He'll be called a liar a few months into office when it's confirmed that he can't do a thing about it.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #26 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 6:26am

BigOl64 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 9:21am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 8:25am:

cods wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:25am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 14^th, 2013 at 9:38pm:

The Greens are not an alternative.

They can't government on their own.

The best they can do is muddy the water enough to get a hung Parliament and do their damage there.

too right.... they got themselves into a position of POWER and they couldnt take it all the way..

it showed them up for what they are all mouth and no substance..

they like the Labs lost their way... they sold their souls for VOTES... people soon wake up to that.

most people have a core principle for why they vote a certain way...and when its thrown in their face like this last govt has done.. well its a big wake up call..

Are you trying to infer that the libs arent exactly the same if not worse?

SOB

The speaker implies, the listener infers.

Yeah yeah go away troll

SOB

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skippy.

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #27 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:16am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:20pm:

skippy. wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:01am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 8:01am:

The lunatic Greens were never an alternative, just a protest vote against either of the two main parties...

As a GREENS supporter I would never want the party to represent the likes of you. We have our core support and as mantra has said we have never wanted to rule, much better to force the major paties to have a conscience.

Then the Greens have failed miserably, as Gillard's actions on the carbon dioxide tax show she has no conscience when it comes to lying to the Australian people.

Wake up to yourself, why would the GREENS want to court the vote of a fascist? I d prefer to never form government than to sell my soul for the the likes of you.

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longweekend58

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #28 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:34am

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 7:30pm:

I think they will continue to rise, especially given labor's issues and inability to dump the unions. They will inevitably become more mainstream as part of this process. You only have to compare them now to ten years ago to see this trend.

A major part of the greens most recent decline is a swing to the coalition in general. Labor also lost a lot of ground. Don't confuse this with a permanent swing to the right. It always returns to some kind of 50/50 split. Unless another major party pops up to the right of the coalition and pushes them through the centre, it will swing back.

that analysis is completely contrary to the history of third parties in this country. the usual experience is that they rise.... and then they fall and disappear. the democrats were the only party to have survived any significant length of time and that was to a large degree because they acted as a conscience to the other two rather than a real party in their own right. once they decided to become their own party, the died.

what makes you think the Greens will be any different? so far they appear to following the usual trajectory and beginning their slide to irrelevance as all have before them.

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:41am by longweekend58 »

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mantra

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Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #29 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 8:38am

Quote:

what makes you think the Greens will be any different? so far they appear to following the usual trajectory and beginning their slide to irrelevance as all have before them.

Christine Milne is continuing to keep the party in the spotlight. Unlike Stott Despoja - she's raised her family and has no other distractions. She is committed to the Greens only and thanks to Bob Brown - who still remains alive and active, although with other interests, the Greens have the base support of a particular demographic of people who are disillusioned with the major parties.

That will not change to any great degree.

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