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Abbott's Attempts at Makeover (Read 3128 times)
progressiveslol
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #45 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:45am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:38am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:36am:
No, it is a realist position for him to take. He tried and failed in every tact. It is for someone else to bring on the debate and hopefully the debate is had when he is leader.

You cant have ambitions to be PM and keep bringing up a subject that you keep getting knocked down on. They just dont co-exist.


So now you're arguing its okay to be convictionless if it wins you votes. OK.

One might suggest he would have a better chance if he provided a better educated and level headed debate.  Instead of presenting such obviously strong views that did nothing but put people off.  And the fact he has such strong views that he now DENIES is reason enough to question his integrity completely. Convictionless. And Dumb.  Purely dumb. It isn't "changing tact".   Its simple hiding.

Would like to see what wording you would choose to start up the debate of the century.

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olde.sault
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #46 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:46am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 8:36am:
Quote:
Tony Abbott is trying to improve his image with many women. But as I found out when I met him recently, no makeover can erase his track record of public statements and actions, especially on issues of clear gender sensitivity like abortion.

So will the Abbott re-invention as friend of all women be successful? My experience suggests no, at least not with those familiar with history.

Mixed messages

The defining political event of 2012 was Julia Gillard’s now world-famous “misogyny speech” to opposition leader Tony Abbott

It might not be enough to save her politically but it did enormous amounts of damage to her opponent. He knows it and is furiously working to repair his public image in the eyes of women.

If a recent episode of 60 Minutes is anything to go by, we’re set to see a lot more of the Tony Abbott “nice bloke” makeover in the lead up to the election in an attempt to undo the harm.

In the interview with Liz Hayes, Abbott’s lesbian sister Chris, his wife and daughters gathered to spruik his metrosexual qualities.

But the women of Team Abbott are selling a mixed message. On one hand, he’s definitely a changed man. On the other, he’s been misunderstood all along. And OK, Abbott’s said some nasty things in the past. But who in politics hasn’t?

Rewriting history doesn’t work with those who remember

Abbott is a champion of the mixed message too. He told Hayes he has “changed” and he’d like to think that he has “grown”. But as for the accusations of misogyny and sexism made by Gillard in parliament? They were not “fair” and not “true” of him. Not ever.

Confused? I certainly am, and I recently had the opportunity to discuss the issues with him in person, something the vast majority of voters will never do.

I witnessed the attempted impromptu makeover by Abbott in the flesh. Last month Madison Magazine invited me, along with Miranda Devine and Sarah Murdoch, to meet with Abbott and discuss political issues relevant to women. How could I decline? Of particular interest to me is abortion and reproductive health, and this is likely to be why I was invited.

Abbott was polite and keen to talk and gave every impression of being interested in what I had to say. But when I noted he was the first politician from a major party since the 1970s to break bipartisan consensus and politicise abortion, he denied he had intended to do any such thing.

From that point in the conversation I witnessed a fascinating, determined retelling of history by Abbott, along with a perfectly executed case of selective political amnesia.

The past is a foreign country, Tony Abbott does things differently there

It is worth recalling what Tony Abbott has undeniably said and done when it comes abortion as a political issue.

In March 2004, as Health Minister Abbott told students at the University of Adelaide that abortion was the “easy way out” and an “objectively grave matter” that has been “reduced to a question of the mother’s convenience”.


Tony Abbott as health minister in 2003. His comments from that era have not been forgotten by many women. AAP/Dean Lewins
He then pursued an anti-abortion debate in the media, referring to Australia’s abortion “epidemic”, encouraging other anti-abortion MPs such as Christopher Pyne, before being silenced by the pro-RU486 outcome in the parliament in 2006. In that parliamentary debate, Abbott described the abortion rate as “this generation’s legacy of unutterable shame”.

After being overlooked for the Liberal leadership in 2007, Abbott began the slow process of reworking his image, especially on abortion.

In his 2009 book Battlelines and elsewhere Abbott claimed he gave the Adelaide University speech after a constituent at an Australian Christian Lobby conference asked him how he felt about funding 75,000 abortions a year on Medicare.

At the recent Madison forum I criticised Abbott for politicising abortion. One glance at US political life demonstrates to how toxic life becomes for women once abortion becomes a vote-grabber. He responded by stating he would never have broached the issue in public, were it not for the question posed to him about Medicare that he felt he had to answer.

Who does Abbott think he is kidding?

No denying the record

Abbott has a long history of agitating on abortion in unnecessarily inflammatory language. In 2002, well before he was responsible for Medicare, Abbott addressed the Centre for Independent Studies describing abortion on demand as “part of a tendency to treat human beings as disposable throw-away-when-they’re-not-convenient-commodities.”

In that speech Abbott suggested that abortion might be relevant to a “serious debate” about the low birth rate. When I mentioned this 2002 speech to Abbott as evidence of his ongoing personal interest in abortion, above and beyond his role as health minister, he suggested I must have been confused about the year he delivered it. I wasn’t.


"Damage to his opponent?"

Hardly, his ratings are lifting.  Fact is that he took my advice, slowed his speech and therefore, did away with most of his "umms ".

I noted how the Yank politicians speak - slowly and by doing this, are able to collect their thoughts without stitching with the "umms", the "ers" and the "you know".

I think Tony is doing fine while JuLiar is disgracing herself. These days, she is more entertaining than a soap opera.
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #47 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:48am
 
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:45am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:38am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:36am:
No, it is a realist position for him to take. He tried and failed in every tact. It is for someone else to bring on the debate and hopefully the debate is had when he is leader.

You cant have ambitions to be PM and keep bringing up a subject that you keep getting knocked down on. They just dont co-exist.


So now you're arguing its okay to be convictionless if it wins you votes. OK.

One might suggest he would have a better chance if he provided a better educated and level headed debate.  Instead of presenting such obviously strong views that did nothing but put people off.  And the fact he has such strong views that he now DENIES is reason enough to question his integrity completely. Convictionless. And Dumb.  Purely dumb. It isn't "changing tact".   Its simple hiding.

Would like to see what wording you would choose to start up the debate of the century.



Something along the lines of... "Further scientific discoveries, and experts from the field, now lead us to..."  Something that has some backing, to start with. Not "BIGGEST TRAVESTY OF ALL TIME, DEATH, GLOOM, SATAN, SATAN" blah blah blah crap and then hiding behind a box hoping no-one heard. And then deny deny deny deny deny.  And nothing referencing, "god" please.   It should at least be with some level of evidence.
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progressiveslol
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #48 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:50am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:48am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:45am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:38am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:36am:
No, it is a realist position for him to take. He tried and failed in every tact. It is for someone else to bring on the debate and hopefully the debate is had when he is leader.

You cant have ambitions to be PM and keep bringing up a subject that you keep getting knocked down on. They just dont co-exist.


So now you're arguing its okay to be convictionless if it wins you votes. OK.

One might suggest he would have a better chance if he provided a better educated and level headed debate.  Instead of presenting such obviously strong views that did nothing but put people off.  And the fact he has such strong views that he now DENIES is reason enough to question his integrity completely. Convictionless. And Dumb.  Purely dumb. It isn't "changing tact".   Its simple hiding.

Would like to see what wording you would choose to start up the debate of the century.



Something along the lines of... "Further scientific discoveries, and experts from the field, now lead us to..."  Something that has some backing, to start with. Not "BIGGEST TRAVESTY OF ALL TIME" blah blah blah crap and then hiding behind a box hoping no-one heard.

Yes but it has to be true. To the imoral and amoral, what you state wouldnt shift at all. What science. It is a moral question. A moral debate.
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #49 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:52am
 
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:50am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:48am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:45am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:38am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:36am:
No, it is a realist position for him to take. He tried and failed in every tact. It is for someone else to bring on the debate and hopefully the debate is had when he is leader.

You cant have ambitions to be PM and keep bringing up a subject that you keep getting knocked down on. They just dont co-exist.


So now you're arguing its okay to be convictionless if it wins you votes. OK.

One might suggest he would have a better chance if he provided a better educated and level headed debate.  Instead of presenting such obviously strong views that did nothing but put people off.  And the fact he has such strong views that he now DENIES is reason enough to question his integrity completely. Convictionless. And Dumb.  Purely dumb. It isn't "changing tact".   Its simple hiding.

Would like to see what wording you would choose to start up the debate of the century.



Something along the lines of... "Further scientific discoveries, and experts from the field, now lead us to..."  Something that has some backing, to start with. Not "BIGGEST TRAVESTY OF ALL TIME" blah blah blah crap and then hiding behind a box hoping no-one heard.

Yes but it has to be true. To the imoral and amoral, what you state wouldnt shift at all. What science. It is a moral question. A moral debate.

Its a debate that can definitely be led by science.  And that's where some level of truth can come from.  Otherwise, if it's a moral debate then how can you possibly define a truth?   
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progressiveslol
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #50 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:56am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:52am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:50am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:48am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:45am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:38am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:36am:
No, it is a realist position for him to take. He tried and failed in every tact. It is for someone else to bring on the debate and hopefully the debate is had when he is leader.

You cant have ambitions to be PM and keep bringing up a subject that you keep getting knocked down on. They just dont co-exist.


So now you're arguing its okay to be convictionless if it wins you votes. OK.

One might suggest he would have a better chance if he provided a better educated and level headed debate.  Instead of presenting such obviously strong views that did nothing but put people off.  And the fact he has such strong views that he now DENIES is reason enough to question his integrity completely. Convictionless. And Dumb.  Purely dumb. It isn't "changing tact".   Its simple hiding.

Would like to see what wording you would choose to start up the debate of the century.



Something along the lines of... "Further scientific discoveries, and experts from the field, now lead us to..."  Something that has some backing, to start with. Not "BIGGEST TRAVESTY OF ALL TIME" blah blah blah crap and then hiding behind a box hoping no-one heard.

Yes but it has to be true. To the imoral and amoral, what you state wouldnt shift at all. What science. It is a moral question. A moral debate.

Its a debate that can definitely be led by science.  And that's where some level of truth can come from.  Otherwise, if it's a moral debate then how can you possibly define a truth?   

The judge and juror with the temporary parking space has had ever angle blockaded with activist for time memorial (in context to a need for debate).

The debate has to be on moral grounds because it doesnt matter what the science says about when life begin blah blah.

The debate can only be a moral one and when the people are ready to get past the fact that life is important. All life, even potential life vs potential conception.

You cant get there without upsetting a good many people who are in the amoral stage.
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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:02pm by progressiveslol »  
 
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olde.sault
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #51 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:57am
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 9:25am:
cods wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 8:44am:
BTW



I have no doubt Abbott wants abortions to be as rare as possible.




goes for me toooooooo...

so many couples out there dying for a baby...

and yet we sit back and watch babies dying before they are given a chance..


people are having more than one abortion...what does that tell us????

or does stupid women like this think it should be made as easy as buying a latte?


In australia babies arent aborted. Some fetuses are.

SOB


Some unwanted fetuses survive.  Some find themselves in violent households and get bashed to death by partners of their biological mothers.

Others die slowly from malnutrition or disease.

If these had been given a choice, would all have chosen to be born for such sentences?
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #52 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:56am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:52am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:50am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:48am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:45am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:38am:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 11:36am:
No, it is a realist position for him to take. He tried and failed in every tact. It is for someone else to bring on the debate and hopefully the debate is had when he is leader.

You cant have ambitions to be PM and keep bringing up a subject that you keep getting knocked down on. They just dont co-exist.


So now you're arguing its okay to be convictionless if it wins you votes. OK.

One might suggest he would have a better chance if he provided a better educated and level headed debate.  Instead of presenting such obviously strong views that did nothing but put people off.  And the fact he has such strong views that he now DENIES is reason enough to question his integrity completely. Convictionless. And Dumb.  Purely dumb. It isn't "changing tact".   Its simple hiding.

Would like to see what wording you would choose to start up the debate of the century.



Something along the lines of... "Further scientific discoveries, and experts from the field, now lead us to..."  Something that has some backing, to start with. Not "BIGGEST TRAVESTY OF ALL TIME" blah blah blah crap and then hiding behind a box hoping no-one heard.

Yes but it has to be true. To the imoral and amoral, what you state wouldnt shift at all. What science. It is a moral question. A moral debate.

Its a debate that can definitely be led by science.  And that's where some level of truth can come from.  Otherwise, if it's a moral debate then how can you possibly define a truth?   

The judge and juror with the temproary parking space has had ever angle blockaded with activist for time momorial (in context to a need for debate).

The debate has to be on moral grounds because it doesnt matter what the science says about when life begin blah blah.

The debate can only be a moral one and when the people are ready to get past the fact that life is important. All life, even potentual life vs potentual conception.

You cant get there wqithout upsetting a good many people who are in the amoral stage.


and see that's where you lose me. There are no truths to morals - only social acceptances.  And it'll take more than your preaching to make abortion immoral.  Hence why I suggest a bit of truth through science.  But it's no surprise anyone who would use "god" truth in their argument against abortion would laugh at the idea of science getting involved.  Anyway, I doubt the debate of abortion when it ACTUALLY comes down to it is as simple as you try to make it out.  And I doubt that people who choose to go through with it are immoral, as you try to make out.
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progressiveslol
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #53 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:04pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
and see that's where you lose me. There are no truths to morals - only social acceptances.  And it'll take more than your preaching to make abortion immoral.  Hence why I suggest a bit of truth through science.  But it's no surprise anyone who would use "god" truth in their argument against abortion would laugh at the idea of science getting involved.  Anyway, I doubt the debate of abortion when it ACTUALLY comes down to it is as simple as you try to make it out.  And I doubt that people who choose to go through with it are immoral, as you try to make out.

I dont see where I used god. Maybe you can point it out for me. Also, I think most people are amoral, but sure there are many who are imoral.

I cant see any moral worth having if you dont extend the right for potentual life to succeed.

It isnt far off in the psychy to thinking life born is not worthy either. And that is as imoral as you could get in my book.
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #54 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:24pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:04pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
and see that's where you lose me. There are no truths to morals - only social acceptances.  And it'll take more than your preaching to make abortion immoral.  Hence why I suggest a bit of truth through science.  But it's no surprise anyone who would use "god" truth in their argument against abortion would laugh at the idea of science getting involved.  Anyway, I doubt the debate of abortion when it ACTUALLY comes down to it is as simple as you try to make it out.  And I doubt that people who choose to go through with it are immoral, as you try to make out.

I dont see where I used god. Maybe you can point it out for me. Also, I think most people are amoral, but sure there are many who are imoral.

I cant see any moral worth having if you dont extend the right for potentual life to succeed.

It isnt far off in the psychy to thinking life born is not worthy either. And that is as imoral as you could get in my book.


And I wouldn't disagree. But life being born and life being conceived are two completely different things that need a sensible and scientific debate to understand the moral aspects properly. It's not good to simply have an opinion and not be able to justify it other then denigrating as what Tony did. And now of course deny deny deny deny deny.
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progressiveslol
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #55 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:26pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:24pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:04pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
and see that's where you lose me. There are no truths to morals - only social acceptances.  And it'll take more than your preaching to make abortion immoral.  Hence why I suggest a bit of truth through science.  But it's no surprise anyone who would use "god" truth in their argument against abortion would laugh at the idea of science getting involved.  Anyway, I doubt the debate of abortion when it ACTUALLY comes down to it is as simple as you try to make it out.  And I doubt that people who choose to go through with it are immoral, as you try to make out.

I dont see where I used god. Maybe you can point it out for me. Also, I think most people are amoral, but sure there are many who are imoral.

I cant see any moral worth having if you dont extend the right for potentual life to succeed.

It isnt far off in the psychy to thinking life born is not worthy either. And that is as imoral as you could get in my book.


And I wouldn't disagree. But life being born and life being conceived are two completely different things that need a sensible and scientific debate to understand the moral aspects properly. It's not good to simply have an opinion and not be able to justify it other then denigrating as what Tony did. And now of course deny deny deny deny deny.

I think we can agree to disagree and I think we are both right. They are both angles in a very difficult and imovable subject.
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #56 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:32pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:26pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:24pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:04pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
and see that's where you lose me. There are no truths to morals - only social acceptances.  And it'll take more than your preaching to make abortion immoral.  Hence why I suggest a bit of truth through science.  But it's no surprise anyone who would use "god" truth in their argument against abortion would laugh at the idea of science getting involved.  Anyway, I doubt the debate of abortion when it ACTUALLY comes down to it is as simple as you try to make it out.  And I doubt that people who choose to go through with it are immoral, as you try to make out.

I dont see where I used god. Maybe you can point it out for me. Also, I think most people are amoral, but sure there are many who are imoral.

I cant see any moral worth having if you dont extend the right for potentual life to succeed.

It isnt far off in the psychy to thinking life born is not worthy either. And that is as imoral as you could get in my book.


And I wouldn't disagree. But life being born and life being conceived are two completely different things that need a sensible and scientific debate to understand the moral aspects properly. It's not good to simply have an opinion and not be able to justify it other then denigrating as what Tony did. And now of course deny deny deny deny deny.

I think we can agree to disagree and I think we are both right. They are both angles in a very difficult and imovable subject.

You're probably right Wink
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #57 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:43pm
 
how is it 'gender sensitive' or sexist to have an opposition to abortion? it is not and never will be purely and solely a 'woman's rights' issue and more than opinions on pedophilia are only permitted in children!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #58 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:44pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:43pm:
how is it 'gender sensitive' or sexist to have an opposition to abortion? it is not and never will be purely and solely a 'woman's rights' issue and more than opinions on pedophilia are only permitted in children!



You've utterly missed the point.
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Re: Abbott's Attempts at Makeover
Reply #59 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 2:49pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:44pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:43pm:
how is it 'gender sensitive' or sexist to have an opposition to abortion? it is not and never will be purely and solely a 'woman's rights' issue and more than opinions on pedophilia are only permitted in children!



You've utterly missed the point.


which would make more sense and have more potency as a reply if you actually explained WHY.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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