Australian Politics Forum - Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?

chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #150 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:51am

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:37am:

So it's safe to tow them to waters where it's no longer our problem even though the other country won't take them?

Well considering these boats will steam 20km or so back into the port they recently left and the country shoppers would then disembark, it's not our responsibility.
What the Indon's do next with these foreigners wandering on their streets is really up to them eh.

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Infarction Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 509	Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor? Reply #151 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:54am Will they? Even if the Indonesians don't let them? But let me guess, it's not our responsibility any longer therefore it's "safe"?
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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #152 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:02am

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

Will they?

Even if the Indonesians don't let them?

But let me guess, it's not our responsibility any longer therefore it's "safe"?

Indonesian boat

If they don't take them back then everyone would be coming here....

Oh wait - they are coming here

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #153 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:02am

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

Will they?

Even if the Indonesians don't let them?

But let me guess, it's not our responsibility any longer therefore it's "safe"?

Once the Indons board, the country shoppers and criminal crew become their responsibility.
And if they don't board and the vessel reaches port, they still become their responsibility.
After all, the boat would not have the fuel to get back into Australian waters so there is no choice.
What are the Indons going to do, fire on them?
As if that's ever going to happen.
So yes, it's 'safe'.
Only requires a few boats to be dealt with in this manner and they simply will stop coming.
Which of course is the 'safest' option of all.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #154 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:06am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

Will they?

Even if the Indonesians don't let them?

But let me guess, it's not our responsibility any longer therefore it's "safe"?

Once the Indons board, the country shoppers and criminal crew become their responsibility.
And if they don't board and the vessel reaches port, they still become their responsibility.
After all, the boat would not have the fuel to get back into Australian waters so there is no choice.
What are the Indons going to do, fire on them?
As if that's ever going to happen.
So yes, it's 'safe'.
Only requires a few boats to be dealt with in this manner and they simply will stop coming.
Which of course is the 'safest' option of all.

The issue here is if you make an example out of a few - you'll save many

So far about 1000 have died under under this Labor's plans

But because they can classified as "unavoidable" then they believe their policy is working

If you towed back say 80 or 100 and make an example of them then only 80 are "potentially" harmed

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #155 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:10am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:06am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

Will they?

Even if the Indonesians don't let them?

But let me guess, it's not our responsibility any longer therefore it's "safe"?

Once the Indons board, the country shoppers and criminal crew become their responsibility.
And if they don't board and the vessel reaches port, they still become their responsibility.
After all, the boat would not have the fuel to get back into Australian waters so there is no choice.
What are the Indons going to do, fire on them?
As if that's ever going to happen.
So yes, it's 'safe'.
Only requires a few boats to be dealt with in this manner and they simply will stop coming.
Which of course is the 'safest' option of all.

The issue here is if you make an example out of a few - you'll save many

So far about 1000 have died under under this Labor's plans

But because they can classified as "unavoidable" then they believe their policy is working

If you towed back say 80 or 100 and make an example of them then only 80 are "potentially" harmed

That's true, however this logic continues to escape Labor.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
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Infarction

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #156 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:10am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

Will they?

Even if the Indonesians don't let them?

But let me guess, it's not our responsibility any longer therefore it's "safe"?

Once the Indons board, the country shoppers and criminal crew become their responsibility.
And if they don't board and the vessel reaches port, they still become their responsibility.
After all, the boat would not have the fuel to get back into Australian waters so there is no choice.
What are the Indons going to do, fire on them?
As if that's ever going to happen.
So yes, it's 'safe'.
Only requires a few boats to be dealt with in this manner and they simply will stop coming.
Which of course is the 'safest' option of all.

Yes of course , knowledge that they won't be accepted but taking them anyway is completely safe.

Are you actually being serious with this?

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #157 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:13am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:33am:

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:20am:

What?

They don't have to take them back, what will happen then?

Leaving a boat with no fuel in open water while knowing the other country won't take them isn't safe, explain to me how that is safe.

But there isn't a 'boat with no fuel in open water' as ensuring these boats have enough fuel to make port after being towed to Indon territorial waters would ensure that they make port unless the crew sabotage the boat.
But once these boats enter Indonesian territorial waters, it's not our issue anymore.
What the Indon's do after that is up to them really.

You are making a false assumption that the boats will not be sabotaged before hitting indon waters.

Its been shown in the past that the boats are quickly sabotaged. Could be as simple as draining the motor oil while its running as soon as an Australian boat turns up. None of the boats are ever destined to return to port.

You can in assume in most cases when the boat is found it will not be in any condition to self-motor.
What then ?

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #158 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:21am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:33am:

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:20am:

What?

They don't have to take them back, what will happen then?

Leaving a boat with no fuel in open water while knowing the other country won't take them isn't safe, explain to me how that is safe.

But there isn't a 'boat with no fuel in open water' as ensuring these boats have enough fuel to make port after being towed to Indon territorial waters would ensure that they make port unless the crew sabotage the boat.
But once these boats enter Indonesian territorial waters, it's not our issue anymore.
What the Indon's do after that is up to them really.

You are making a false assumption that the boats will not be sabotaged before hitting indon waters.

Its been shown in the past that the boats are quickly sabotaged. Could be as simple as draining the motor oil while its running as soon as an Australian boat turns up. None of the boats are ever destined to return to port.

You can in assume in most cases when the boat is found it will not be in any condition to self-motor.
What then ?

They only sabotage it because they know this will force the Aust boat to rescue them

But if they sabotage and sink - how many more would do the same?

the answer is ZERO!!

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #159 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:24am

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:10am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

Will they?

Even if the Indonesians don't let them?

But let me guess, it's not our responsibility any longer therefore it's "safe"?

Once the Indons board, the country shoppers and criminal crew become their responsibility.
And if they don't board and the vessel reaches port, they still become their responsibility.
After all, the boat would not have the fuel to get back into Australian waters so there is no choice.
What are the Indons going to do, fire on them?
As if that's ever going to happen.
So yes, it's 'safe'.
Only requires a few boats to be dealt with in this manner and they simply will stop coming.
Which of course is the 'safest' option of all.

Yes of course , knowledge that they won't be accepted but taking them anyway is completely safe.

Are you actually being serious with this?

The Indon's won't allow these vessels to float around aimlessly in their waters, or allow them to disembark without supervision.
It hasn't happened, and won't happen.
The Indons 'accept' those who's boat has sunk in their waters, they will 'accept' those others as well.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #160 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #161 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:32am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:33am:

Infarction wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 9:20am:

What?

They don't have to take them back, what will happen then?

Leaving a boat with no fuel in open water while knowing the other country won't take them isn't safe, explain to me how that is safe.

But there isn't a 'boat with no fuel in open water' as ensuring these boats have enough fuel to make port after being towed to Indon territorial waters would ensure that they make port unless the crew sabotage the boat.
But once these boats enter Indonesian territorial waters, it's not our issue anymore.
What the Indon's do after that is up to them really.

You are making a false assumption that the boats will not be sabotaged before hitting indon waters.

Its been shown in the past that the boats are quickly sabotaged. Could be as simple as draining the motor oil while its running as soon as an Australian boat turns up. None of the boats are ever destined to return to port.

You can in assume in most cases when the boat is found it will not be in any condition to self-motor.
What then ?

I make no assumption on sabotage by criminal boat crews, however the boats are checked over by our naval personnel when boarded.
And sabotage is a risk the country shoppers will have to take if that's the course of action their crew pursues, and murder charges await the crew should anyone die because of their actions.
One thing we can assume, is the next government will not be blackmailed by criminals.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
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2003.

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #162 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #163 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:47am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

It's been done before

Tow a few more back and lets see how many will come

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #164 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:52am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:47am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

It's been done before

Tow a few more back and lets see how many will come

Unfortunetly that is a one-off outcome which required many weeks of negotiation (and god knows what we gave up to the indo's to acheive it). I think we all know that Indonesia would have said something along the lines of "just this once".

Remember these people are illegally in indonesia as well. In most cases the government of indonesia is not aware they even exist in indonesia.

Did Rudds' turn back of this boat stop other boats ?
No.

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