Australian Politics Forum - Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?

chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #165 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:53am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

Well, that didn't happen under Howard.
There was no sinking of boats en masse.
One thing did happen, they stopped coming.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #166 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:55am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:47am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

It's been done before

Tow a few more back and lets see how many will come

Unfortunetly that is a one-off outcome which required many weeks of negotiation (and god knows what we gave up to the indo's to acheive it). I think we all know that Indonesia would have said something along the lines of "just this once".

Remember these people are illegally in indonesia as well. In most cases the government of indonesia is not aware they even exist in indonesia.

Did Rudds' turn back of this boat stop other boats ?
No.

Because it's not policy

Therefore these people will see it as being "unlucky"

If you announce it as policy and implement it then it would work

The Pacific Solution worked and you can't deny that!

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #167 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:55am

I would have thought the policy would be reasonably simple.

Sri Lanka has already communicated to Australia (and Canada) that they will readily accept the return of all of those fleeing Sri Lanka.

Sri Lanka is an ally of Australia and deemed no longer a risk by the Government.

Immediately hand Sri Lankans over to their home country.

Thus cutting the problem people down by about 30%!

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #168 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:57am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:55am:

I would have thought the policy would be reasonably simple.

Sri Lanka has already communicated to Australia (and Canada) that they will readily accept the return of all of those fleeing Sri Lanka.

Sri Lanka is an ally of Australia and deemed no longer a risk by the Government.

Immediately hand Sri Lankans over to their home country.

Thus cutting the problem people down by about 30%!

One of the problems is the Greens

I am looking forward to see how Labor will treat the Greens in the next election

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #169 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:58am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:55am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:47am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

It's been done before

Tow a few more back and lets see how many will come

Unfortunetly that is a one-off outcome which required many weeks of negotiation (and god knows what we gave up to the indo's to acheive it). I think we all know that Indonesia would have said something along the lines of "just this once".

Remember these people are illegally in indonesia as well. In most cases the government of indonesia is not aware they even exist in indonesia.

Did Rudds' turn back of this boat stop other boats ?
No.

Because it's not policy

Therefore these people will see it as being "unlucky"

If you announce it as policy and implement it then it would work

The Pacific Solution worked and you can't deny that!

The world has moved on from the Pacific solution. The courts have ruled parts of it illegal, and we have spent goodwill with the indos already.
What we have thats actually possible of the pacific solution is what we have now.

Towing back boats will not be possible because:
1) The boats will be unable to be left.
2) We cannot enter indonesian waters without their permission.
3) Indonesia do not want these refo's anymore than we do.

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #170 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:02am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:58am:

The world has moved on from the Pacific solution. The courts have ruled parts of it illegal, and we have spent goodwill with the indos already.
What we have thats actually possible of the pacific solution is what we have now.

Towing back boats will not be possible because:
1) The boats will be unable to be left.
2) We cannot enter indonesian waters without their permission.
3) Indonesia do not want these refo's anymore than we do.

(1) "The world" have moved on from everything - so what's your point?

(2) Show me the court cases for the Pacific Solution

(3) So we just take all the crap that Indonesia throw at us?

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #171 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:12am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:58am:

The world has moved on from the Pacific solution. The courts have ruled parts of it illegal, and we have spent goodwill with the indos already.
What we have thats actually possible of the pacific solution is what we have now.

Towing back boats will not be possible because:
1) The boats will be unable to be left.
2) We cannot enter indonesian waters without their permission.
3) Indonesia do not want these refo's anymore than we do.

(1) "The world" have moved on from everything - so what's your point?

(2) Show me the court cases for the Pacific Solution

(3) So we just take all the crap that Indonesia throw at us?

Yes, the world has moved on, and "solutions" from the past no longer work. The evidence is clear, we have the "pacific solution" of howard right now. It aint working.

Indonesia arent throwing anything at us. The Indo government is not involved in people smuggling at all. Its run by multi-national criminal gangs.
Indonesia will not take back large numbers of refuges found in international waters, and so they shouldnt.

If you were an indonesian, would you ?

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #172 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:16am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:58am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:55am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:47am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

It's been done before

Tow a few more back and lets see how many will come

Unfortunetly that is a one-off outcome which required many weeks of negotiation (and god knows what we gave up to the indo's to acheive it). I think we all know that Indonesia would have said something along the lines of "just this once".

Remember these people are illegally in indonesia as well. In most cases the government of indonesia is not aware they even exist in indonesia.

Did Rudds' turn back of this boat stop other boats ?
No.

Because it's not policy

Therefore these people will see it as being "unlucky"

If you announce it as policy and implement it then it would work

The Pacific Solution worked and you can't deny that!

The world has moved on from the Pacific solution. The courts have ruled parts of it illegal, and we have spent goodwill with the indos already.
What we have thats actually possible of the pacific solution is what we have now.

Towing back boats will not be possible because:
1) The boats will be unable to be left.
2) We cannot enter indonesian waters without their permission.
3) Indonesia do not want these refo's anymore than we do.

Our ships do not need to enter Indonesian waters, just to be just inside international waters to send them back.
And the boats to have only enough fuel to steam the 20km back to harbour is all that is required also making points 1 & 3 irrelevant.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #173 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:18am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:12am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:58am:

The world has moved on from the Pacific solution. The courts have ruled parts of it illegal, and we have spent goodwill with the indos already.
What we have thats actually possible of the pacific solution is what we have now.

Towing back boats will not be possible because:
1) The boats will be unable to be left.
2) We cannot enter indonesian waters without their permission.
3) Indonesia do not want these refo's anymore than we do.

(1) "The world" have moved on from everything - so what's your point?

(2) Show me the court cases for the Pacific Solution

(3) So we just take all the crap that Indonesia throw at us?

Yes, the world has moved on, and "solutions" from the past no longer work. The evidence is clear, we have the "pacific solution" of howard right now. It aint working.

I was not aware the Pacific Solution have been reinstated in full

Indonesia arent throwing anything at us. The Indo government is not involved in people smuggling at all. Its run by multi-national criminal gangs.
Indonesia will not take back large numbers of refuges found in international waters, and so they shouldnt.

And these gangs only got 1600 through under the Pacific Solution. Under Labor it's 35,000 and counting

If you were an indonesian, would you ?

So this opinion is not based on policy but rather a "would you" assumption.

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor? Reply #174 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:20am I take particular offense to these illegals calling a radio station asking to be put through to the police to come and pick them up These people know the weaknesses in our system and is willing to exploit it
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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #175 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:20am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:16am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:58am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:55am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:47am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Remember that these people are trying to get a better life ie escape death therefore they are not going to kill themselves

They know there is little danger of death if they sink themselves

They know they are forcing Australia to rescue them

This is like little children chucking a tantrum in the middle of a Supermarket knowing their parents would get too embarrassed and give into their demands

It's about time we don't give into their demands

It's our country

The approach you describe is true. If our policy is tow back boats to indon waters, the actions of boat people will be to simply sabotage the boat as soon as rescue by Australian boat is close.

Even Abbott will not refuse to rescue these people. As soon as they step foot on an Australian boat in international waters, they are OUR problem, not the indonesians. They arent even indonesians.

This is the fundamental problem of tow-back-the boats policy. There will be no boat to tow back.

It's been done before

Tow a few more back and lets see how many will come

Unfortunetly that is a one-off outcome which required many weeks of negotiation (and god knows what we gave up to the indo's to acheive it). I think we all know that Indonesia would have said something along the lines of "just this once".

Remember these people are illegally in indonesia as well. In most cases the government of indonesia is not aware they even exist in indonesia.

Did Rudds' turn back of this boat stop other boats ?
No.

Because it's not policy

Therefore these people will see it as being "unlucky"

If you announce it as policy and implement it then it would work

The Pacific Solution worked and you can't deny that!

The world has moved on from the Pacific solution. The courts have ruled parts of it illegal, and we have spent goodwill with the indos already.
What we have thats actually possible of the pacific solution is what we have now.

Towing back boats will not be possible because:
1) The boats will be unable to be left.
2) We cannot enter indonesian waters without their permission.
3) Indonesia do not want these refo's anymore than we do.

Our ships do not need to enter Indonesian waters, just to be just inside international waters to send them back.
And the boats to have only enough fuel to steam the 20km back to harbour is all that is required also making points 1 & 3 irrelevant.

You cant be serious.

So youve towed a boat back to international waters (from Australian waters), to just outside the indonesian waters, and the people on board have paid $10,000 to get to Australia and..
1) You assume they havent sabotaged the boat already
2) You assume they'll just chuff back to indonesia forgoing their $10K

Madness.

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #176 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:22am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:20am:

You cant be serious.

So youve towed a boat back to international waters (from Australian waters), to just outside the indonesian waters, and the people on board have paid $10,000 to get to Australia and..
1) You assume they havent sabotaged the boat already
2) You assume they'll just chuff back to indonesia forgoing their $10K

Madness.

And the ones who pay to get on the next boat is even more mad

And if they want to die - let them

Because it might have save thousands

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #177 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:23am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:18am:

Yes, the world has moved on, and "solutions" from the past no longer work. The evidence is clear, we have the "pacific solution" of howard right now. It aint working.

I was not aware the Pacific Solution have been reinstated in full

Indonesia arent throwing anything at us. The Indo government is not involved in people smuggling at all. Its run by multi-national criminal gangs.
Indonesia will not take back large numbers of refuges found in international waters, and so they shouldnt.

And these gangs only got 1600 through under the Pacific Solution. Under Labor it's 35,000 and counting

If you were an indonesian, would you ?

So this opinion is not based on policy but rather a "would you" assumption.

What differs from the current policy we have now and the howard pacific solution other than the "pacific" countries used for detention has changed a bit?. The framework is the same.

My point about "what would you do" is that the indonesian government is under the same pressure as our government to not have to deal with these people. Indonesia will not just accept them back on mass.

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #178 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:24am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:20am:

You cant be serious.

So youve towed a boat back to international waters (from Australian waters), to just outside the indonesian waters, and the people on board have paid $10,000 to get to Australia and..
1) You assume they havent sabotaged the boat already
2) You assume they'll just chuff back to indonesia forgoing their $10K

Madness.

And the ones who pay to get on the next boat is even more mad

And if they want to die - let them

Because it might have save thousands

The Navy has repeatidly said they will not leave Asylym seakers to die. They will defy orders to do so.

So this is not an option on the table.

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #179 - Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:29am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:23am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 28^th, 2013 at 11:18am:

Yes, the world has moved on, and "solutions" from the past no longer work. The evidence is clear, we have the "pacific solution" of howard right now. It aint working.

I was not aware the Pacific Solution have been reinstated in full

Indonesia arent throwing anything at us. The Indo government is not involved in people smuggling at all. Its run by multi-national criminal gangs.
Indonesia will not take back large numbers of refuges found in international waters, and so they shouldnt.

And these gangs only got 1600 through under the Pacific Solution. Under Labor it's 35,000 and counting

If you were an indonesian, would you ?

So this opinion is not based on policy but rather a "would you" assumption.

What differs from the current policy we have now and the howard pacific solution other than the "pacific" countries used for detention has changed a bit?. The framework is the same.

My point about "what would you do" is that the indonesian government is under the same pressure as our government to not have to deal with these people. Indonesia will not just accept them back on mass.

The fact that you have to ask means you don't know. All you are doing is assuming it's the same to convince yourself that Labor didn't stuff up

Facts are it's not the same. If it was the same then Gillard would have implemented the policy without asking Houston to make recommendations

If it was the same the Houston would have said "Implement the Pacific Solution"

Instead - it recommend something else which is NOT the Pacific Solution

As for the Indonesian government - you assume there's no corruption in Indonesia in allowing these boats through.

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