Australian Politics Forum - Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?

Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #60 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 6:02pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:27pm:

Still waiting for you to explain why you think TPV are a good idea now - when they clearly were not a good idea before.

THey did nothing to reduce the arrival of asylum seekers in Australlia, but they did lead to more women and children placing themselves at risk.

As for evidence that TPVs were a deterrent - there isn't any. There is only speculation by those who haven't bothered fact checking or doing a bit of research. If anyone tells you that TPVs were a factor in stopping boats in
2001
, rest assured they have no idea what they are talking about, or they are simply lying.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2757748.htm

We are referring to 2 specific periods

Howard's pacific Solution - 2002
to 2007

Rudd/Gillard's No Solution - 2008 to 2013

You would have seen that I said

TPV + Pacific Solution = Best Solution

Not that it's called "Pacific Solution"

Not a cheap imitation called the Houston Recommendation

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #61 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 6:58pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:01pm:

From 1999-2001 there was NO Pacific Solution policy. Try getting it right once in a while...

I see - so we're only using the TPV figures that fit your narrative - just quietly ignore the ones that don't Grin

Maqqa wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:18pm:

Pacific Solution + TPV = Best Solution

I don't expect this to ever sink in, but I'll keep repeating it anyway.

We know what stopped the boats - and it wasn't the so-called pacific solution. It was operation Relex - conducted between about August and November 2001. Howard and Reith ordered the navy to start a campaign of terror against incoming boats - firing shots across their bows, standing back as boats sank, and above all - towing boats back to Indonesian waters. We all know as well that this coincided with an intense propaganda campaign by the Howard government to justify risking people's lives in this way. Children overboard, demonizing boat people, queue jumpers, importing terrorists etc.

Operation Relex was an extreme, knee jerk reaction to a massive spike in arrivals caused directly by the implementation of TPVs. The actual pacific solution - as in offshore processing to Nauru and Manus Island - came in after the boats had already stopped. No one has ever explained to me how processing in Nauru stops boats. It doesn't. Terrorizing boat people on the waters and towing boats back stops boats - but it is not the pacific solution. Also such stunts won't be tolerated in the future - either by the Indonesians or the navy itself.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #62 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 7:41pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 6:58pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:01pm:

From 1999-2001 there was NO Pacific Solution policy. Try getting it right once in a while...

I see - so we're only using the TPV figures that fit your narrative - just quietly ignore the ones that don't Grin

Maqqa wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:18pm:

Pacific Solution + TPV = Best Solution

I don't expect this to ever sink in, but I'll keep repeating it anyway.

We know what stopped the boats - and it wasn't the so-called pacific solution. It was operation Relex - conducted between about August and November 2001. Howard and Reith ordered the navy to start a campaign of terror against incoming boats - firing shots across their bows, standing back as boats sank, and above all - towing boats back to Indonesian waters. We all know as well that this coincided with an intense propaganda campaign by the Howard government to justify risking people's lives in this way. Children overboard, demonizing boat people, queue jumpers, importing terrorists etc.

Operation Relex was an extreme, knee jerk reaction to a massive spike in arrivals caused directly by the implementation of TPVs. The actual pacific solution - as in offshore processing to Nauru and Manus Island - came in after the boats had already stopped. No one has ever explained to me how processing in Nauru stops boats. It doesn't. Terrorizing boat people on the waters and towing boats back stops boats - but it is not the pacific solution. Also such stunts won't be tolerated in the future - either by the Indonesians or the navy itself.

The navy will do as it's told as always, and Indonesia can suck it up considering their border policy leaks like a sieve.
Australia should not bear the brunt because Indonesia is corrupt and incompetent.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #63 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 7:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 6:58pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:01pm:

From 1999-2001 there was NO Pacific Solution policy. Try getting it right once in a while...

I see - so we're only using the TPV figures that fit your narrative - just quietly ignore the ones that don't Grin

Maqqa wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:18pm:

Pacific Solution + TPV = Best Solution

I don't expect this to ever sink in, but I'll keep repeating it anyway.

We know what stopped the boats - and it wasn't the so-called pacific solution. It was operation Relex - conducted between about August and November 2001. Howard and Reith ordered the navy to start a campaign of terror against incoming boats - firing shots across their bows, standing back as boats sank, and above all - towing boats back to Indonesian waters. We all know as well that this coincided with an intense propaganda campaign by the Howard government to justify risking people's lives in this way. Children overboard, demonizing boat people, queue jumpers, importing terrorists etc.

Operation Relex was an extreme, knee jerk reaction to a massive spike in arrivals caused directly by the implementation of TPVs. The actual pacific solution - as in offshore processing to Nauru and Manus Island - came in after the boats had already stopped. No one has ever explained to me how processing in Nauru stops boats. It doesn't. Terrorizing boat people on the waters and towing boats back stops boats - but it is not the pacific solution. Also such stunts won't be tolerated in the future - either by the Indonesians or the navy itself.

Please also repeat, the measures worked.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #64 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 8:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 6:58pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:01pm:

From 1999-2001 there was NO Pacific Solution policy. Try getting it right once in a while...

I see - so we're only using the TPV figures that fit your narrative - just quietly ignore the ones that don't Grin

Maqqa wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:18pm:

Pacific Solution + TPV = Best Solution

I don't expect this to ever sink in, but I'll keep repeating it anyway.

We know what stopped the boats - and it wasn't the so-called pacific solution. It was operation Relex - conducted between about August and November 2001. Howard and Reith ordered the navy to start a campaign of terror against incoming boats - firing shots across their bows, standing back as boats sank, and above all - towing boats back to Indonesian waters. We all know as well that this coincided with an intense propaganda campaign by the Howard government to justify risking people's lives in this way. Children overboard, demonizing boat people, queue jumpers, importing terrorists etc.

Operation Relex was an extreme, knee jerk reaction to a massive spike in arrivals caused directly by the implementation of TPVs. The actual pacific solution - as in offshore processing to Nauru and Manus Island - came in after the boats had already stopped. No one has ever explained to me how processing in Nauru stops boats. It doesn't. Terrorizing boat people on the waters and towing boats back stops boats - but it is not the pacific solution. Also such stunts won't be tolerated in the future - either by the Indonesians or the navy itself.

Lets look at the timeline for TPV, Pacific Solution and when the current Rudd/Gillard government stuffed it up

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #65 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:26pm

Quote:

Lets look at the timeline for TPV, Pacific Solution and when the current Rudd/Gillard government stuffed it up

um yeah - you notice that big spike between 1999-2001? Thats TPVs.

My guess is that if pull factors have an effect, then Rudd/Gillard "stuffed it up" by indicating that they would no longer be towing boats back or using the navy to terrorise and endanger asylum seekers.

But thats not the pacific solution. Once again, I have yet to see any compelling reason why processing asylum seekers at Nauru or Manus Island under the actual pacific solution would have any effect. I definitely can't see why TPVs would have an effect - given that the introduction of TPVs saw an immediate and massive spike in arrivals.

The proof in the pudding is that Gillard's new Nauru solution - with added punitive measures (the 'no advantage' principle) has done diddly squat in reducing the boats - despite the libs promise that it would.

I apply a simple common sense formula to this:
1. treating asylum seekers like schit after we agree to process their claims does jack schit to the number of boat arrivals.
2. making it clear we will do everything to avoid processing asylum seekers claims in the first place by sending them back and endangering their lives does have an effect on the number of boat arrivals.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #66 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

Quote:

Lets look at the timeline for TPV, Pacific Solution and when the current Rudd/Gillard government stuffed it up

um yeah - you notice that big spike between 1999-2001? Thats TPVs.

Did you notice 2002? That's when the Pacific Solution came into existence.

And it is the main point of discussion

TPV + Pacific Solution = Best solution for Australia

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #67 - Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:58pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

But thats not the pacific solution. Once again, I have yet to see any compelling reason why processing asylum seekers at Nauru or Manus Island under the actual pacific solution would have any effect. I definitely can't see why TPVs would have an effect - given that the introduction of TPVs saw an immediate and massive spike in arrivals.

Then you understand didley squat about onshore and offshore processing

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #68 - Mar 25^th, 2013 at 12:19am

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

Quote:

Lets look at the timeline for TPV, Pacific Solution and when the current Rudd/Gillard government stuffed it up

um yeah - you notice that big spike between 1999-2001? Thats TPVs.

My guess is that if pull factors have an effect, then Rudd/Gillard "stuffed it up" by indicating that they would no longer be towing boats back or using the navy to terrorise and endanger asylum seekers.

But thats not the pacific solution. Once again, I have yet to see any compelling reason why processing asylum seekers at Nauru or Manus Island under the actual pacific solution would have any effect. I definitely can't see why TPVs would have an effect - given that the introduction of TPVs saw an immediate and massive spike in arrivals.

The proof in the pudding is that Gillard's new Nauru solution - with added punitive measures (the 'no advantage' principle) has done diddly squat in reducing the boats - despite the libs promise that it would.

I apply a simple common sense formula to this:
1. treating asylum seekers like schit after we agree to process their claims does jack schit to the number of boat arrivals.
2. making it clear we will do everything to avoid processing asylum seekers claims in the first place by sending them back and endangering their lives does have an effect on the number of boat arrivals.

You do realise that TPV's plus the Pacific Solution stopped the boats, don't you???

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Infarction

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #69 - Mar 25^th, 2013 at 5:28am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 5:21pm:

Infarction wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 3:44pm:

Infarction wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 3:34pm:

And?

They are fleeing shithole places, they try and come here, 70% get to, or somewhere thereabouts at least and don't get sent home.

It's not really an intimidating stat. You will need to do better to push the tpv line.

43% achieved the goal of getting to Australia

if you paid $10K for a diamond but were told the cubic zirconia you got was "somewhere thereabouts" you'd be pissed

so don't try to increase the success rate by mixing the 2 numbers

the $10K was to get onto mainland Aust

How many were given tpv's and then sent home maqqa.. This is the question you continuously avoid.

(1) Of the 700 that was given protection VISA and allowed to set foot on Australian soil - I don't know

(2) How does this then related to the 34,000 under Labor?

It doesn't, if tpv's were a deterrent the majority who were given them would have been sent home. So far all I can find is that a bunch of afghans voluntarily went home and most of the rest were resettled .

How does this make tpv's an effective deterrent exactly?

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Infarction

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #70 - Mar 25^th, 2013 at 5:32am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 25^th, 2013 at 12:19am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

Quote:

Lets look at the timeline for TPV, Pacific Solution and when the current Rudd/Gillard government stuffed it up

um yeah - you notice that big spike between 1999-2001? Thats TPVs.

My guess is that if pull factors have an effect, then Rudd/Gillard "stuffed it up" by indicating that they would no longer be towing boats back or using the navy to terrorise and endanger asylum seekers.

But thats not the pacific solution. Once again, I have yet to see any compelling reason why processing asylum seekers at Nauru or Manus Island under the actual pacific solution would have any effect. I definitely can't see why TPVs would have an effect - given that the introduction of TPVs saw an immediate and massive spike in arrivals.

The proof in the pudding is that Gillard's new Nauru solution - with added punitive measures (the 'no advantage' principle) has done diddly squat in reducing the boats - despite the libs promise that it would.

I apply a simple common sense formula to this:
1. treating asylum seekers like schit after we agree to process their claims does jack schit to the number of boat arrivals.
2. making it clear we will do everything to avoid processing asylum seekers claims in the first place by sending them back and endangering their lives does have an effect on the number of boat arrivals.

You do realise that TPV's plus the Pacific Solution stopped the boats, don't you???

And now pretty much that same policy, asides from tpv's, is not.

Now, as we have established, tpv's themselves wernt any type of a deterrent, why do you expect things to change if they are reintroduced?

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #71 - Mar 25^th, 2013 at 6:19am

Infarction wrote on Mar 25^th, 2013 at 5:32am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 25^th, 2013 at 12:19am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

Quote:

Lets look at the timeline for TPV, Pacific Solution and when the current Rudd/Gillard government stuffed it up

um yeah - you notice that big spike between 1999-2001? Thats TPVs.

My guess is that if pull factors have an effect, then Rudd/Gillard "stuffed it up" by indicating that they would no longer be towing boats back or using the navy to terrorise and endanger asylum seekers.

But thats not the pacific solution. Once again, I have yet to see any compelling reason why processing asylum seekers at Nauru or Manus Island under the actual pacific solution would have any effect. I definitely can't see why TPVs would have an effect - given that the introduction of TPVs saw an immediate and massive spike in arrivals.

The proof in the pudding is that Gillard's new Nauru solution - with added punitive measures (the 'no advantage' principle) has done diddly squat in reducing the boats - despite the libs promise that it would.

I apply a simple common sense formula to this:
1. treating asylum seekers like schit after we agree to process their claims does jack schit to the number of boat arrivals.
2. making it clear we will do everything to avoid processing asylum seekers claims in the first place by sending them back and endangering their lives does have an effect on the number of boat arrivals.

You do realise that TPV's plus the Pacific Solution stopped the boats, don't you???

And now pretty much that same policy, asides from tpv's, is not.

Now, as we have established, tpv's themselves wernt any type of a deterrent, why do you expect things to change if they are reintroduced?

Still can't bring yourself to admit that Howard got it right while Rudd/Gillard got it so badly wrong, eh? Grin

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Maqqa

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #72 - Mar 25^th, 2013 at 7:12am

Infarction wrote on Mar 25^th, 2013 at 5:32am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 25^th, 2013 at 12:19am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 24^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

Quote:

Lets look at the timeline for TPV, Pacific Solution and when the current Rudd/Gillard government stuffed it up

um yeah - you notice that big spike between 1999-2001? Thats TPVs.

My guess is that if pull factors have an effect, then Rudd/Gillard "stuffed it up" by indicating that they would no longer be towing boats back or using the navy to terrorise and endanger asylum seekers.

But thats not the pacific solution. Once again, I have yet to see any compelling reason why processing asylum seekers at Nauru or Manus Island under the actual pacific solution would have any effect. I definitely can't see why TPVs would have an effect - given that the introduction of TPVs saw an immediate and massive spike in arrivals.

The proof in the pudding is that Gillard's new Nauru solution - with added punitive measures (the 'no advantage' principle) has done diddly squat in reducing the boats - despite the libs promise that it would.

I apply a simple common sense formula to this:
1. treating asylum seekers like schit after we agree to process their claims does jack schit to the number of boat arrivals.
2. making it clear we will do everything to avoid processing asylum seekers claims in the first place by sending them back and endangering their lives does have an effect on the number of boat arrivals.

You do realise that TPV's plus the Pacific Solution stopped the boats, don't you???

And now pretty much that same policy, asides from tpv's, is not.

Now, as we have established, tpv's themselves wernt any type of a deterrent, why do you expect things to change if they are reintroduced?

Calling the Pacific Solution similar to the Houston Recommendation is like calling a diamond similar to cubic zirconia

The only difference is Gillard paid $6B for the cubic zirconia and the Pacific Solution cost $200M

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor?
Reply #73 - Mar 25^th, 2013 at 7:13am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 25^th, 2013 at 12:19am:

You do realise that TPV's plus the Pacific Solution stopped the boats, don't you???

Um no I don't actually. The boats had already stopped by the time the PS was put in place.

Terrorizing boat people, threatening their lives and sending them back to Indonesia clearly had a long term impact. Promising to process asylum seekers at Nauru, with the virtual assurance that they will be resettled in Australia does not. That should be obvious.

Please educate yourself:

Quote:

The day after the Tampa crisis began, August 28, cabinet met and directed the then chief of the Defence Force, Admiral Chris Barrie, to prepare a military response to the problem of the boat people. The Government wanted the operation to run for 12 weeks, right through the peak of the boat season - and the election campaign.

Quote:

When Barrie was instructed to launch Relex, his orders from cabinet were to warn the asylum boats to turn around, and to rely on a show of force to deter them. After that, the military was to get all its instructions directly from the Government. On the vexed question of what the military should do if the asylum boats refused to heed the navy, Barrie told his commanders that "Government approval and guidance for subsequent response is to be sought".

Quote:

By September 14, when Gately wrote to Reith, the first clash between the Government and the navy over its SOLAS obligations had occurred. Gately told Reith that two navy commanders had qustioned the military over the actions. One had removed asylum seekers from a boat (the SIEV 2 - Suspected Illegal Entry Vessel 2) which was about to run aground on Ashmore Reef. The other had ended a fraught boarding operation against SIEV 3, which had refused to turn back to Indonesia. Some passengers had threatened suicide if they were forced to return and a pregnant woman was about to give birth. Some 54 children were on board.

Quote:

At the same time, the Government overhauled its strategy for Relex. It instructed the navy to begin towing boats out of Australian waters to the edge of Indonesian waters.

Quote:

In the end, the more aggressive strategy under Relex worked as a deterrent, but at some cost. The navy, with army units on board, began towing asylum boats to Indonesian waters. But this increased the SOLAS problems for the navy. Confrontations on board the boats led to accusations by asylum seekers that the navy had left them in dangerous vessels to drift in Indonesian waters.

Quote:

Ultimately, the Government gambled on Operation Relex and pulled victory from the jaws of near defeat. But other factors besides Relex also had an impact on stopping the boats, including the sinking of SIEV X with more than 400 passengers on board in late October

Basically Howard panicked after Tampa because he couldn't stop the boats in election season. So he ordered a military campaign using the navy to stop the boats. Attempts at intimidation and risking lives initially failed as well - so Howard simply ordered the navy to get tougher. Finally all boats were ordered to be towed back to Indonesian waters - at great risk to life and limb.

All this happened BEFORE the pacific solution was implemented, you geniuses. The boats stopped BEFORE 2002. Sending asylum seekers to Nauru and Manus Island for processing did diddly squat to stop the boats - because the boats had already been stopped.

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Why did illegal boat numbers increase under Labor? Reply #74 - Mar 25^th, 2013 at 7:16am Operation Relex was rolled over into Operation Resolute in 2006 and operate until today - what's your point?
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