Australian Politics Forum - Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....

namnugenot

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #30 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:09am

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 8:30am:

Quote:

(Reuters) - Global warming is expanding the extent of sea ice around Antarctica in winter in a paradoxical shift caused by cold plumes of summer melt water that re-freeze fast when temperatures drop, a study showed on Sunday.

"Sea ice around Antarctica is increasing despite the warming global climate," said Richard Bintanja, lead author of the study at the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute.

"This is caused by melting of the ice sheets from below," he told Reuters of the findings in the journal Nature Geoscience.

Among other scientists, Paul Holland of the British Antarctic Survey stuck to his findings last year that a shift in winds linked to climate change was blowing a layer of melt water further out to sea and adding to winter ice.

"The possibility remains that the real increase is the sum of wind-driven and melt water-driven effects, of course. That would be my best guess, with the melt water effect being the smaller of the two," he said.

Neither of these two studies is suggesting that our planet is not warming. The melting of the ice from below is actually caused by a warmer Southern Ocean. The only good news is that there may be a negative feedback effect. Which of course is going to be absolutely swamped by our increasing emissions of CO2, if the delayers aren't thwarted.

I thought you denied in a previous thread that negative feedbacks exist in relation to AGW/ACC and "the shrinking ice" I'll have another look later...it could have been Upton.
Anyway beside the point...you admit the possibility that there "may be a negative feedback effect/effects" that you a) can't identify, b) can't quantify and c) have no clue as to whether it is increasing in effect BUT d) you are absolutely positive that it will be swamped by "our increasing emissions of CO2". Number of problems with d). You admit our CO2 will continue to increase regardless of Gillard's carbon tax. And you can't prove AGW or anthropogenic CO2 is causing the effects you claim or the alternatives will not have similar effects...discounting depopulating the planet. You can put forward a hypothesis based on evidence and I mean evidence that does not constantly pull up short or morph to suit new facts and apply different standards of proof to alternative hypotheses...but that's all .

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MOTR

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #31 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:10am

Firstly, of course I don't deny negative feedbacks. So don't try and set up some sort of straw man argument. Climate scientists are very aware of positive and negative feedbacks.

Secondly, are you talking about your imaginary negative feedbacks or are you talking about the ones identified in this study.

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Maqqa

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #32 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:11am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Maqqa wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:41am:

Now confronted with the fact that Arntarctic ice is expanding - you've revised your claims to fit your agenda by saying Global Warming is selective about the type of ice it will melt

You are saying Global warming will only melt Arctic Ice and not Antarctic ice

No one is revising anything. You made the claim that AGW advocates try and link global warming with antarctic sea ice melting - show me where. And yes - the fact that AGW is selective in what ice it melts is self evident. The fact is actual climate scientists have known for a long time that antarctic sea ice expands during AGW - a fact that you and long weekend seem to have only just caught on to.

The prediction that climate scientsts have been making however is that AGW causes a net decrease in the ice caps overall. This is undeniably happening when you add the melting of both the northern ice caps plus the rapidly melting land ice in Antarctica. Also antarctic sea ice almost completely melts during summer anyway - so the effect on sea rise has never been strong anyway. Unlike arctic sea which is still frozen all year round (though not for long).

The highlighted sentence is indicative of the whole AGW fiasco

AGW has an awareness now - like Skynet

AGW: I don't like Arctic ice so I'll melt you first - then I am coming for you Antarctic ice

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Maqqa

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #33 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:13am

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:10am:

Of course I don't deny negative feedbacks. So don't try and set up some sort of straw man argument. Climate scientists are very aware of positive and negative feedbacks.

hence the complete Global Warming model

Anything that supports Global Warming such as crashing ice and cyclones - call it negative feedback

Anything that disprove the Global Warming - dismiss it as positive feedback Cheesy

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MOTR

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #34 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:15am

Maqqa wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:11am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Maqqa wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:41am:

Now confronted with the fact that Arntarctic ice is expanding - you've revised your claims to fit your agenda by saying Global Warming is selective about the type of ice it will melt

You are saying Global warming will only melt Arctic Ice and not Antarctic ice

No one is revising anything. You made the claim that AGW advocates try and link global warming with antarctic sea ice melting - show me where. And yes - the fact that AGW is selective in what ice it melts is self evident. The fact is actual climate scientists have known for a long time that antarctic sea ice expands during AGW - a fact that you and long weekend seem to have only just caught on to.

The prediction that climate scientsts have been making however is that AGW causes a net decrease in the ice caps overall. This is undeniably happening when you add the melting of both the northern ice caps plus the rapidly melting land ice in Antarctica. Also antarctic sea ice almost completely melts during summer anyway - so the effect on sea rise has never been strong anyway. Unlike arctic sea which is still frozen all year round (though not for long).

The highlighted sentence is indicative of the whole AGW fiasco

AGW has an awareness now - like Skynet

AGW: I don't like Arctic ice so I'll melt you first - then I am coming for you Antarctic ice

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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namnugenot

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #35 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:15am

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:57am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:48am:

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:44am:

The sea extent is increasing, due to the reasons outlined in the report you posted. You do remember how it starts with more ice melt, don't you, Maqqa. But have a look at the volume of Antarctic ice.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XZcVBAjN7VU/UTETOX8YTJI/AAAAAAAAG-A/DuQcyb3dBj8/s1600/...

Perhaps you need to go back and read the article again without an agenda.

Your obsession with climate change borders on paranoia you know.

You're absolutely deranged on the subject!!

I'm not the one denying the science, sport.

Selectively producing data to fit an agenda is not "science" sport.

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Maqqa

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #36 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:21am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

And yes - the fact that AGW is selective in what ice it melts is self evident.

This is just classic leftist

AGW is now Skynet - gaining awareness in August 29 1997 Huh

The Terminator was sent back to selectively kill targets - AGW will selectively melt the ice of its choice to fit the Greens political agenda Grin

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #37 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:23am

Maqqa wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:11am:

The highlighted sentence is indicative of the whole AGW fiasco

AGW has an awareness now - like Skynet

AGW: I don't like Arctic ice so I'll melt you first - then I am coming for you Antarctic ice

Using the term "selective" implies no such thing. Thats just ridiculous. It merely acknowledges the fact that some ice melts during AGW (ie most of it), while one particular set of ice does not - for reasons that are perfectly consistent with the AGW effect.

If you want to ask the question - 'does AGW cause global ice to melt?' - the answer is an unequivocal 'yes' based on the common sense logic that the net effect is that global ice overall is melting. The expanse of Antarctic sea ice is not in any way negating the overall trend of global ice being reduced. Thats the only important point here.

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namnugenot

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #38 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:28am

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:10am:

Firstly, of course I don't deny negative feedbacks. So don't try and set up some sort of straw man argument. Climate scientists are very aware of positive and negative feedbacks.

Secondly, are you talking about your imaginary negative feedbacks or are you talking about the ones identified in this study.

What are they (negative feedbacks)?
Are they all known, comprehensive and fully understood?
Are they changing in magnitude?

Of course you don't deny them now when you can no longer do so. But now that you mention it I think I do remember it was you saying they were imaginary then when I said that the historical data supports negative feedbacks. You know like the ones that went from about 4 degrees hotter than now to ice ages...so I don't think they were either "swamped" or small.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49205 At my desk.	Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to.... Reply #39 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:31am Nam I think you are talking about positive feedback loops.
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MOTR Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6646	Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to.... Reply #40 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:32am Show me where I have ever denied negative feedbacks. I've spent hundreds of hours reading about this issue. Of course I recognise negative feedbacks.
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namnugenot

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #41 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:34am

namnugenot wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:28am:

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:10am:

Firstly, of course I don't deny negative feedbacks. So don't try and set up some sort of straw man argument. Climate scientists are very aware of positive and negative feedbacks.

Secondly, are you talking about your imaginary negative feedbacks or are you talking about the ones identified in this study.

What are they (negative feedbacks)?
Are they all known, comprehensive and fully understood?
Are they changing in magnitude?

Of course you don't deny them now when you can no longer do so. But now that you mention it I think I do remember it was you saying they were imaginary then when I said that the historical data supports negative feedbacks. You know like the ones that went from about 4 degrees hotter than now to ice ages...so I don't think they were either "swamped" or small.

That's right you put it down to Milankovitch cycles...which is bollocks...worth the laugh though.

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MOTR Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6646	Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to.... Reply #42 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:36am freediver wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:31am: Nam I think you are talking about positive feedback loops. In that example he is.
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longweekend58

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #43 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:38am

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:10am:

Firstly, of course I don't deny negative feedbacks. So don't try and set up some sort of straw man argument. Climate scientists are very aware of positive and negative feedbacks.

Secondly, are you talking about your imaginary negative feedbacks or are you talking about the ones identified in this study.

except that they neither understand them nor take them into account in their models.

yay science...

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MOTR

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Re: Global warming is causing Antarctic ice to....
Reply #44 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:44am

namnugenot wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:28am:

MOTR wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:10am:

Firstly, of course I don't deny negative feedbacks. So don't try and set up some sort of straw man argument. Climate scientists are very aware of positive and negative feedbacks.

Secondly, are you talking about your imaginary negative feedbacks or are you talking about the ones identified in this study.

What are they (negative feedbacks)?
Are they all known, comprehensive and fully understood?
Are they changing in magnitude?

Of course you don't deny them now when you can no longer do so. But now that you mention it I think I do remember it was you saying they were imaginary then when I said that the historical data supports negative feedbacks. You know like the ones that went from about 4 degrees hotter than now to ice ages...so I don't think they were either "swamped" or small.

Freediver is right. What you are suggesting is a positive feedback loop. Perhaos you can identify when the planet was 4 degrees warmer than today and then perhaps you can identify the climate driver which reversed it.

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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